[nfb-talk] Guide Bots

Wed May 29 16:06:42 UTC 2013

I think Seeing Eye's budget is about $20 million annually. I'm guessing 
they give out less than a thousand dogs per year. Even if it's a 
thousand dogs per year, that's still $20 thousand per dog. If you had 
that kind of money, you could build one heck of a bot. Add in GDB,  
Leader  Dogs, and all the other schools  budgets and the annual total is 
probably close to $100 million. If you could get $100 million for 
research and development, you could design  one heck of a bot.

Yeah, good luck with that. :-)

Even so, I'm thinking eventually it will get done. If I ran a guide dog 
school, I'd try to get together some money to start working on it. I'd 
want to be the school that came up with the bot, not one of the schools 
resisting it.

On 05/28/13 16:15, Michael Bullis wrote:
> First of all, a cane and a dog are two very different tools.  A cane relies
> on proximity of information and investigation in order for the user to make
> decisions about where he or she is going.  I would venture to say that in
> many situations, particularly those in which the user is in unfamiliar
> territory, the dog is faster because it evaluates some things that the blind
> person doesn't.  For example.  The dog sees an obstacle and goes around it
> without the blind person necessarily even knowing that the object was there.
> But, many blind folks don't want dogs because of their maintenance issues
> and often precisely because the dog insulates the blind person from the
> environment in the ways I just described.
> You can say to the dog, for example, "find the stairs."  And the dog will do
> that.  Unfortunately, most dogs can't be told to find the up stairs as
> opposed to the down stairs, but, they can do it.
> You might say to the dog, "find the sidewalk" and the dog would do that.
> Dogs though are better on some days than others.  Sometimes they are more
> alert than others.  These problems might be overcome with a bot and you
> wouldn't have to feed, brush or take it outside.
> Your question about why the thing would have to guide at all if it gave
> enough information is a good one.  I've struggled with a way to describe a
> device that could give enough information and haven't been able to describe
> such a device.  Processing 3d information into a form that I can quickly use
> is difficult or expensive.  One could perhaps describe some sort of tactile
> live mapping that would tell me what is in front of me and at what distance
> but every description of that becomes quickly very expensive.
> Maybe there is a way though and I'd be interested in such ideas.
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> Jacobson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:28 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Guide Bots
>
> Mike,
>
> To me, the idea of a device that is responsible for guiding, even if made
> simpler as described here, adds so much complexity and size that really has
> limited advantage to my way of thinking.  A small device that could be
> mounted on a cane or connected to a dog's leash to detect objects and
> provide feedback would provide most of what a guiding device would without
> the size and other complicating issues.  Why does it have to aim itself at
> all if the blind person were to receive enough information to do the aiming
> from a smaller travel aid?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
>
> On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:24:59 -0400, Michael Bullis wrote:
>
>> I've been thinking about a new travel device lately and would be
>> interested in any feedback members might have.
>> I've been wondering lately if there is enough reasonably priced
>> portable processing power available to make a guide bot.
> >From looking on the web there are a few projects, mostly not very
>> efficient ones.  There is a company called nst that is working on it
>> but expects to bring a product to market in the 2020's.  The reason
>> most projects are so difficult is that they are spending inordinate
>> amounts of time and money teaching the guide bots to climb stairs and fully
> "lead" the blind  person.
>> We know this is unnecessary.
>> If you remove the necessity to "lead" the blind person the project
>> becomes much simpler.
>> The device doesn't need to climb stairs.  The blind person can simply
>> lift it up or down.  This assumes of course that it is a lightweight
> device.
>
>> For example, suppose you have a two wheeled device with two forward
>> facing cameras  and a handle on it that you direct.  You push the
>> device down the sidewalk let's say.  When it detects an object that you
>> should go around, to the left, the left wheel has a brake on it.  When
>> the left brake engages and slows the left wheel, the device naturally
>> turns that direction.  The same thing happens if you want to go right.
>> If there's a curb coming, both wheels slowly engage their brakes.
>> At any time, if you as the person in charge wish to override the
>> braking, you simply give a quick shove to the device.
>> The blind person provides the forward motion, eliminating any need for
>> motive power.  The only thing the device needs power for is processing
>> and braking.
>> Whether verbally, or with a small keypad, you tell the device what you
>> want it to do.  If the device is going to talk to you at all it needs
>> to be through an open-ear earbud.  But this may be unnecessary.
>> I believe it would require two cameras for measuring distance and for
>> scanning both in front and to the sides.
>> In order for the device to be practical it would have to solve problems
>> that the cane and most dogs don't solve.  That is, it would have to
>> detect objects at head height.  And, it would have to be fast.  The
>> thing that limits a cane user in new territory is the necessity of
>> slowing down while detecting an object and moving around it.
>> I place a list of things below that are within reach of today's
>> technology but I'm not sure if they are within the practical financial
>> boundaries of a marketable device.
>> I thought those of you who think about matters like this might weigh in
>> on this and let me know.
>> Here is my list of things the device could do.
>> 1.  avoiding objects-people and other interferences to the path of
>> travel
>> 2.  Detecting objects as high as one's head.
>> 3.  identifying curbs and ramps
>> 4.  recognizing intersecting sidewalks or other paths of travel
>> 5.  finding doors
>> 6.  locating up or down stairs
>> 7.  locating elevators
>> 8.  locating elevator buttons
>> 9.  finding restrooms
>> 10.  finding empty urinals
>> 11.  finding empty seats on busses or in conference rooms
>> 12.  returning to an already found seat
>> 13.  finding a bus stop
>> 14.  finding a specific address
>> 15.  following an indicated person
>> I'd be interested in feedback on this idea.
>> If you wish to write me off-line, do so at
>> mbullis at imagemd.org
>> Thanks for your thinking.
>> Mike
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