[nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

Fri Feb 15 19:17:59 UTC 2013

Mike,

To some degree, I think legislation is part of the answer to force visibility and perhaps even to force some funds to be 
allocated.  However, I do agree with what you are saying that it is impossible to define well.  We had a bill here in Minnesota 
back in the late 90's and it was somewhat vague, but it resulted in visibility of the problem.  Of course, some legislatures and 
perhaps Congress would not have passed our bill because it was not specific enough, so that approach is probably not a universal 
answer.  Still, I think that affecting the market rather than trying to dictate to developers has a better chance of having an 
impact.

Here is an aspect that I think we really need to try to understand better than we do.  There are accessibility issues that can and 
should be addressed more quickly by screen readers in a perfect world.  JFW's OCR feature is an example of a technology that can 
help in some cases, and the capability has been there for a long time but nobody had tried it.  Sure, Freedom Scientific deserves 
credit for trying it now, but how much of our accessibility difficulties are solveable by screen readers if they had funding to do 
so?  I took a course on Wednesday that involved FLASH, and JFW, Window-Eyes, and NVDA all handled it differently.  Both Window-
Eyes and JFW had problems with the course but each displayed parts of the course well that the other did not handle.  I suspect 
that both programs probably could make this course accessible if FLASH were more of a priority than it is.  Unfortunately, making 
FLASH work better is probably essential, but as a practical matter won't bring either screen reader more money than they will 
already get.  It isn't that I'm implying either of them is greedy.  The fact is that they can't afford to devote resources that 
cost them money to something that won't bring them a return and neglect something else that will bring them a return.  GW Micro 
and Freedom Scientific have had to spend considerable resources making their products work with Windows 8, Office 2010, and now 
Office 2013.  This is partly because 
Microsoft may have required that as a part of agreements, but also, whichever screen reader worked with the new versions would 
have had a 
let up on the other for people buying new computers so neither could afford not to.  I do not live in a fantasy world believing 
that everything will ever be accessible, but I think we're falling further and further behind.  I even see cases in some Microsoft 
products where both Window-Eyes and JFW are a little flaky, enough to make it harder for a new computer user to learn it.  When 
you read a PDF document, Adobe gives you three ways to have that document processed.  I am an experienced user, so I have some 
understanding of the options, but it is one more hurtle to new users.  We're fortunate that they give us three options, but I 
wonder how pacient sighted users would be if they had to make these same choices when they read a PDF document.  These are small 
examples in that we can more or less work around them, but I see even within our accessible world that we're getting so many rough 
edges that it adds even a second layer to be dealt with by a new user beyond the layer added by screen readers.  

It just seems as though we have to do more than just complain and then give up.  If we get something passed, it is bound to have 
some positive impact even if it is not perfect.  If we don't get it passed but are seen as coming close, even that will help.  I'm 
all for finding something that would work better than this, but I don't know what it is.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 19:19:19 -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:

>My difficulty is that I am rather skeptical that a truly effective access
>technology bill can be written given the pace at which innovation occurs and
>new technologies are brought on-line. Accessibility (or rather, the lack
>thereof) is one of those concepts that's kind of like that which the late
>Supreme Court Justice Potter Stuart said about pornography: "I can't define
>it but I know it when I see it!".

>Mike Freeman

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry Wayland
>Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:57 PM
>To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

>Gary, Yes I can. Let me find out the latest act number and I will send you a
>copy.  At one time it was Arkansas act 1227, but last year  there was some
>minor changes made to improve it and the act number changed.
>What I have been watching this year are bill numbers so we will be able to
>attend the committee meeting to fight the changes these three senators are
>planning to make. So far a bill has not been submitted, as far as we can
>tell.
>By the way, I down loaded the sample bill in 1999 from the NFB web site.  My
>rep followed that outline and wrote the bill that became act 1227 to fit
>Arkansas. I don't know if that sample is still there are not.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Wunder
>Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 9:56 AM
>To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

>Larry, can you send us Arkansas's law? In Missouri we joint Massachusetts in
>a short-lived boycott of Microsoft products.  Our Dir. of information
>technology in Missouri was incensed by Microsoft's indifference, but he said
>it was impractical for Missouri to do such a boycott if the federal
>government and other states were not willing to be a part of it.

>Warmly,

>Gary

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry Wayland
>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 6:52 PM
>To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

>Arkansas, I have been told by people who should know has the strongest law
>in the nation for technology for blind and visually impaired people.  This
>year Three Arkansas Senators have gotten together to try to change that.  We
>are planning a big fight.
>If blind and visually impaired people in other states could meet with their
>Representatives and pass state laws that are stronger than the federal laws
>these development companies would have to make their software and hardware
>accessible or not be able to sell it. It was hoped when the law was passed
>in Arkansas in 1999 other states would be able to follow suit  but for
>whatever reason that has not happened.  We are really hoping we are going to
>be able to head off this attempt to weaken the Law.
>Making a software package accessible for blind people is not only good for
>us, its good for everyone. A package that is accessible is also much cleaner
>and better planned.
>Larry

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Wunder
>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:39 PM
>To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

>I encourage you to do that. As a part of the ADA Accessibility Team, perhaps
>you have an affirmative obligation to do it. If we can't secure accessible
>software from the Federal Government, then Section 508 is a lie and we might
>as well figure that out sooner than later. What do you have to lose: you
>have a stellar work record, plenty of seniority, and if they decide to make
>it tough on you, you can retire. How much better for you to do the heavy
>lifting than the fellow trying to break into government service.

>Warmly,

>Gary

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stanzel, Susan -
>FSA, Kansas City, MO
>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 1:05 PM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

>I sure wish I had some hints. It seems like Adobe should do more to make
>flash accessible. On some of my courses they don't even use customary
>keystrokes we all know. You can't do a list of links because nothing looks
>like a link. I'm not sure what I will do in my retirement, but I will not
>mind leaving the daily struggle. As part of the section 508 team here I am
>really thinking of filing. At the moment I am just dreading my struggle with
>Pearson Vue to make the accommodations for a Java certification test. Steve,
>Curtis said you have had some dealings with them. Is that true?

>Susie

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 12:28 PM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

>I was thinking about something Steve said.  When there were actual human
>instructors, I could get them to make things accessible, or at least to try.
>I think it's hard for one person to stand next to another and say, "No, I
>don't care about your problems at all." And, if the trainer was writing on
>the board, I could ask him or a classmate what was written, usually.  What's
>so frustrating about these online courses is that, not only are they
>inaccessible, but I can't find anyone to talk to about it who has the power
>to do something about it. There's no accountability.
>There doesn't even seem to be anyone who's remotely interested.
>Tracy

>> Tracy,
>>
>> Do you know what the software that is being used is called?  I am 
>> dealing with a similar problem here and getting nowhere.  I have had a 
>> couple of cases where the reason for the course was for me to just 
>> press a button to acknowledge I had read some documents that I had 
>> read, and the button was not at all accessible.  When I complained, 
>> reasonable accommodation was seen to be having a co-worker press the 
>> button for me.  That worked in the short run, but what about the long 
>> run?  I have had no luck getting the name of a contact outside of my 
>> employer which is what I really need to see what can be done.
>> However, in my case, a good deal of the problem is with FLASH.  In one 
>> course, the problem was that all buttons that were used in the entire 
>> course remained visible to Window-Eyes, JFW and NVDA.  The TAB key 
>> even jumped to them.  However most would do nothing when pressed 
>> because they were not part of the current window.  There could easily 
>> have been 100 unlabeled buttons of which maybe five were active, and 
>> the others did not show visually.  I have another set of courses where 
>> I figured out that the button that goes to the next frame which has a 
>> label of "next" is identified as "Close" by screen readers.  This 
>> isn't a problem once I figured it out.  Some of my courses display PDF 
>> documents within the course but apparently provide their own 
>> inaccessible PDF viewer.  Sometimes I can get these documents 
>> separately once I find the person who wrote the course, but it all 
>> takes time away from my job.  In short, I'm with you completely but 
>> don't really know where to turn.  Adobe will tell us that FLASH can be 
>> made accessible and they have all kinds of information as to how to do 
>> it.  Developers will tell you that Adobe puts all of the burden on 
>> them.  Okay, so I'm venting, too.
>> <smile>  In my case, most courses have been accessible for me where I 
>> work until the past couple of years, so I'm seeing the accessibility 
>> slipping away.  The problem is that nobody realized that what they had 
>> done was accessible because one doesn't complain about something when 
>> it works.  In the old days, when there were instructors for classes, I 
>> could often get by with taking careful notes and perhaps reading just 
>> a little from the material.
>> I might just study a couple of diagrams with the Optacon.  However, we 
>> not only don't have instructors any longer, we are required to take 
>> many more courses, some for legal documentation purposes.  Some 
>> courses are such that I would have to get security clearance for a 
>> reader, and the workload is so unpredictable, it isn't a great 
>> solution, especially when this wouldn't have to be a problem.  Running 
>> into this kind of thing as well as the problems you and I have 
>> mentioned with respect to computer update screens, and even what I see 
>> as flakiness with screen readers in certain applications just gives 
>> one an uneasy feeling about our progress.  There has to be a way to 
>> put some pressure on some of these developers, and if we can get our 
>> TEACH act passed, it might help in that some of these developers 
>> probably develop some on-line courses for higher education.  However, 
>> in a large company, this kind of thing is very frustrating.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 11:36:54 -0500, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>
>>>I was recently assigned some online training at work.  It's always 
>>>been inaccessible, but I thought I should give it a try and see if 
>>>somehow  they had changed things.  Nope, still inaccessible.
>>>It's so frustrating, because it's almost accessible, except that there 
>>>are lots of unlabeled buttons, and, when they ask a question designed 
>>>to test my knowledge before moving on, it's displayed as a picture, 
>>>with no text.
>>>At which point I'm stuck, and have to stop.
>>>I've complained to Human Resources, to Training, and to some VP in 
>>>charge of web-based training.  I just left feedback on the site, 
>>>trying to explain the problem.  I really don't know what else to do.
>>>If they  really want me to take this course, they'll have to assign 
>>>someone to sit with  me and do it, and the boss doesn't want to do 
>>>that.  So I get no training.
>>>I'm not sure what I'd actually learn from the training, but I guess 
>>>I'll never know.
>>>And to add insult to injury, right on top of the training website it 
>>>says "empowering people".  Well, not blind people.
>>>I'm just venting my frustration, though if anyone has some idea, I'm 
>>>open to suggestions.
>>>Tracy
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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