[nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again

Mon Feb 18 21:06:46 UTC 2013

Tami,

I question to what degree most employers now care about usability.  I would even go a step further and say that many software 
developers care more about having a feature than how usable it is.  This isn't to say that what you say is wrong, rather I just 
have doubts that it can be leveraged to make change happen on a scale that we need it to happen.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:20 -0800, Tami Jarvis wrote:

>Operation Fulcrum seems descriptive enough. /smile/

>What I have found is that by tying accessibility to usability, it is 
>quite possible to draw the lines for an exec to the profit margin 
>because usability results in productivity.

>It's also very possible to draw the connection in discussing the 
>development process, from several angles. Quite a lot of accessible 
>design for the officially disabled really benefits the usability for the 
>overall end user pool. So you can show benefit to more than that small 
>minority of employees.

>The very small time (and thus expense) spent in building in that 
>accessibility/usability) from the outset can also be shown to save a lot 
>down the road for any application, from inhibiting the dreaded project 
>creep to work in all that useless whiz bang, to ease of maintenance and 
>upgrades for the application when it is in use.

>And so on. I've had the advantage of working for small to medium sized 
>companies, where I often *was* the des/dev team, which probably made it 
>easier to communicate these points to the boss, or to the client. Well, 
>when I was starting out and charging by the hour, the fact that I was 
>pointing out that it was me they would paying less for better function 
>helped the sell. /lol/ But, of course, the benefit to me was better word 
>of mouth, so I gained more than I lost.

>Drawing the profit lines is trickier when you factor in third-party 
>software firms... They're profiting by selling their behemoth 
>applications to corporations who are then vested in the product and 
>likely to buy the upgrades and hope for the best... The problems of 
>end-user productivity are not theirs, so why worry? Hm... A coordinated 
>communication/education effort might get somebody somewhere with some of 
>those bloated corporate software providers, but... Using the legal 
>options when possible as disincentive can be called communication and 
>education, too!

>So our Operation Fulcrum is indeed a balancing act, isn't it?

>Tami

>On 02/17/2013 05:02 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>> Problem is that I don't believe companies can truly make a larger prophet by
>> making things accessible. If we buy that one, we're only kidding ourselves.
>>
>> And half the time, we on this list can't solve the problems vicariously
>> because each situation is different, the number of technologies being
>> required to work together seamlessly presents a plethora of permutations and
>> combinations that aren't easily anticipated and, in any event, we've agreed,
>> at least in principle, that it is unrealistic to expect that all interfaces,
>> software and such meet minimum standards for accessibility while having
>> their fancy stuff not interfere.
>>
>> Let's face it, we're a small minority. So for the most part, the law,
>> ineffective as it sometimes is, is about our only point of leverage.
>>
>> If we *did* do an investigation of this topic formally, would it be called
>> Operation Fulcrum?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of david hertweck
>> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 4:07 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again
>>
>> You have good points, but the path that may help is.
>> 1. share your problems on this list and let the talented people on this
>> group pitch in to try and solve the problem.
>> 2. I strongly believe if we can show companies how they can make a larger
>> profit by making their product accessible this will work better than laws.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Larry Wayland
>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 1:13 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again
>>
>> Dave, Gabe
>> I agree with your points, especially the one about not griping on the job,
>> but I think discussion should be wide open. Discussion is a normal thing in
>> the work place and should include accessibility when necessary.
>> Thinking outside the box is a good idea as well, but not everyone has that
>> capability, at least to the point necessary to adapt work sites to the
>> extent some of them need to be adapted.  Engineers are trained to think
>> outside the box. Not everyone has that ability and there are job situations
>> where thinking outside the box will do no good at all. I don't see what
>> could be done to make a customer site accessible if is not. The companies
>> using the software are not going to let you make changes to the software and
>> all the work is right there in front of you either you can fill in the boxes
>> or you can't. If you can talk the companies into letting you try to fix the
>> problems with scripts or adjust the access software they sure are not going
>> to give you much time. They want production and I don't blame them. The
>> software should be accessible from the drawing board. I think only laws
>> backed by education has any chance of working.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:43 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>
>> David and Gabe, I'm sure we all know these points.  But, if the training is
>> just not accessible, I can spend all the time in the world looking at it,
>> and still be where I was when I started.  Now, I could possibly log in from
>> home and hire someone at home to do the mouse clicking.  That will work for
>> training that doesn't involve anything confidential.  Otherwise, if there's
>> no one at work who can help me, I'm S.O.L.
>> Tracy
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "david hertweck" <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 8:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>
>>
>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company I found
>>> the best approach is:
>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of the box,
>>> make it work.
>>> 2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they are not
>>> as effective as other people they put in the extra time so we should be
>>> willing to do this.
>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours can not
>>> interfere with others.
>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that person help
>>> you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X" accessible for you.
>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in this forum
>>> but not at work.
>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and certainly
>>> more responsibilities than you do, so you should never add to them for
>>> accessibility problems.
>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company for you.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> through out my work life
>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: majolls at cox.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>
>>> Gary and all
>>>
>>> I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you "complain"?  If
>>> you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do (too much) you are
>>> perceived as a burden ... and managers would rather not deal with you and
>>> get someone else that doesn't have the requirement that you do.  I work
>>> for a large corporation.  I found that while managers can be sympathetic,
>>> others just don't care.  it really depends on your luck of the draw
>>> regarding what manager you do get.
>>>
>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A presenter
>>> would be running his demo, and the display was up on the "big screen".
>>> Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I was just too far away
>>> and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced concern, what I mostly got was
>>> "just do your best" ... which was absolutely no help.  I finally came up
>>> with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a separate monitor that can be
>>> placed on a table that I can sit close to".  That idea really worked, but
>>> it took me ... not them ... to come up with the idea.  The managers ...
>>> who are supposed to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what
>>
>>> might work.  And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>
>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the application
>>> changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers have priorities on
>>> what they have to get done.  When you require someone to sit with you
>>> (meaning time and money) or when you ask your manager to help you ...
>>> they'll do it as long as it isn't excessive ... meaning as long as it
>>> doesn't take a lot of time and money.  If it does, you're kind of on your
>>> own.  And as far as them modifying software to be accessible ... that's
>>> only an option if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business
>>> requirements" they have to get done first.  Where I'm at, that's always
>>> the case.
>>>
>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility programming so we
>>> can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things to say, but I've only had
>>> 35 years of experience in dealing with this.  And it doesn't sound like
>>> the federal government is any better than private industry.  People
>>> (managers) are people no matter where you go I suppose.
>>>
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>>
>>
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