[nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again

Tue Feb 19 23:51:20 UTC 2013

hi,

this is true and swapping/trading job tasks helps but it's also not right 
for someone to claim to be successful when they had an assistant for 30 
years.
Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again

> Hi, John. I like what you are saying, which I interpret to mean, "Don't
> blame the victim for being the victim."
>
> I know I have been extremely lucky; I did not determine my level of
> motivation, my intelligence, or whether or not I was born with pleasing or
> repulsive looks. For what I have I can only be grateful.
>
> Admitting all of this, I do worry that folks are not doing today what many
> did in our day to find jobs. Like Steve and Mike, I fear that 
> accessibility
> has come to mean what the computer and I can do together, and not what I,
> along with a computer and perhaps a person, can do.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:38 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessiable Training - again
>
> Well, not to dispute anything you say, Steve, but it's not particularly
> relevant to the topic at hand. I brought up the fairness issue because I
> felt the list was getting dangerously close to blaming blind people
> themselves for being unemployed. There is a huge, huge difference between
> advising people that they should be prepared to put in extra hours to keep
> up with their sighted counterparts and telling them it's their own fault 
> if
> they can't keep up.
>
> I'll be the first to admit that some blind people just need a kick in the
> fanny. But that's a tiny minority. And it steams my wheaties when those of
> us who've made it act superior to those who haven't.  That hurts us all.
> Whether we like it or not, we're all tied together to a great degree. When
> any of us fails, it makes it harder for the others.
> There is no better example of a rising tide lifting all boats than with
> disability rights.
>
> On 2/18/2013 2:42 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>> John,
>>
>> This topic of the fairness of life is one that I have thought about a
>> good deal so I could not resist responding.  To start with, though, I
>> readily accept that blindness is a major barrier to getting and
>> keeping a job.  It is also a major adjustment for those who had vision
>> and lost it, although there are adjustments that those of us who have
>> been blind have to make as well.  At least for me, saying that life isn't
> fair for anyone is not a means to discount the struggles of the unemployed
> blind person.  However, it does define how I look at aspects of life.  I 
> do
> not think that saying life is not fair to anyone is saying that it is
> equally unfair.  Certainly there are those who experience less unfairness
> than others.
>>
>> Still, I would rather be blind in Minnesota than be a sighted woman in
>> many countries where women are denied self-determination for religious
>> or cultural reasons.  Perhaps that seems like a no-brainer, but life
>> isn't fair to them.  There are other segments of the world's population
> with whom I would not wish to trade places, even if it meant having 
> vision.
> I could go down a list of people who have normal vision with whom I am
> acquainted but would not wish to trade places even if it meant getting 
> their
> sight.
>> I can say that if I had normal vision and all other things were the
>> same, I would likely have an easier time doing my current job and
>> perhaps would do it better.  However, it is a large assumption to say
>> that all other things would be the same.  Had I been sighted, I would
>> very likely have spent time serving in Vietnam, for example, and that
>> changed a lot of people, mostly for the worse.  I may not have stuck with
> college, not feeling as strongly that it was important for employment.  In
> short, I won't tell you that I never wish I had sight, but I can honestly
> say that I do not take it for granted that I would be better off if I had
> not been born blind.
>>
>> It affects how I look at what we need from society.  I don't think
>> society can make life fair for everyone by compensating for all of the
>> unfairness because there are many different kinds of unfairness.
>> However, I believe it is in society's interest as well as our interest to
> try to make things accessible, for example, because it means we can more
> likely contribute to society.  This certainly benefits me, but it benefits
> society as well as a whole.
>>
>> It is far too easy to single blindness out when considering what is
>> fair or not fair and to make the unfairness a reason not to do what
>> one can to deal with one's blindness.  Yet, there is truly unfairness
>> in how blindness is viewed by the public, and that certainly plays a
>> large role in our high unemployment rate.  How I am viewed by society can
> change and I can even play a role in making that change.  Nothing 
> currently
> available will change the fact that I am blind, though, so I see myself as
> needing to make the most of what I am and not spend too much time wishing 
> I
> were something different.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:30 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> But it's not true that life is unfair for everyone.  The vast
>>> majority of people never have to overcome a challenge like blindness.
>>
>>> This was driven home to me a few years ago when I wanted to change jobs.
>>> Until I went blind, I had never been turned down for a job I'd
>>> interviewed for. I mean that literally. Since I got my degree, I had
>>> never been turned down after interviewing for a job. Sometimes I had
>>> several offers at once but I had never been turned down. The
>>> discrimination I faced after I went blind came as quite a shock to
>>> me. I couldn't believe the way most people paid way, way more
>>> attention to my disability than my resume. One woman outright refused
>>> to interview me because she didn't believe I could use a computer at
>>> all. And that was for a job that was, frankly, beneath me. Of course,
>>> I just passed that woman off as an idiot. But if I had really needed
>>> that job, that would have hurt.
>>
>>> In my opinion, this lack of empathy those of us who have made it show
>>> toward those who have not is a huge problem. I think it greatly
>>> undermines our ability to get anything done. My opinion is that those
>>> of us who have made it are obligated to try to make it easier for the
>>> next guy. After all, oour paths were smoothed by those who came
>>> before us. I can show you messages where I've criticized kenneth
>>> Jernigan tremendously. I have huge problems with a lot of things he said
> and did.
>>> But there is no question that none of us would be where we are
>>> without him and one heck of a lot of other people like him.
>>
>>> On 2/17/2013 5:59 PM, david hertweck wrote:
>>>> You are 100% correct, but this is true for every one regardless if
>>>> they have a handicap or not.
>>>> Who ever said life is fare or even should be fare.  It is a matter
>>>> of how much do we want to have a job.
>>>> I get what you are saying it makes me very angry when it is such a
>>>> pain to access something that is trivial for a sighted person.
>>>>
>>>> One of the ideas I am playing with is how to show companies how they
>>>> can make a larger profit by making their products accessible.
>>>> Requiring this by law only gets you so far.
>>>>
>>>> Another idea there seams to be a large amount of talent on this
>>>> list, if some one has an need lets jointly try and solve it.
>>>>
>>>> thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: John G. Heim
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:12 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't mean to question the value of the advice given below. It's
>>>> all true, of course. But lets not start blaming blind people for
>>>> accessibility problems. The truth is that to compete against sighted
>>>> people, you often have to be even more mentally tough and work
>>>> harder than they do. But lets face it, that's not really fair.
>>>> And there is another side to this, you can do everything right and
>>>> still fail. You might work your tail off establishing a career and
>>>> then if the vendors of technology products you use make them
>>>> inaccessible, well you are screwed.
>>>>
>>>> I would never question the value of tips on how a blind person can
>>>> be the perfect employee. That is one necessary ingredient in
>>>> building a successful career. You can't succeed without doing the
>>>> thngs listed below. But they don't guarantee success.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Gabe Vega Via Iphone4S wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hell yeah! This post states everything I think. And I believe this
>>>>> is what blind people forget all the time. Maybe you all should read
>>>>> this over and over and over again. Thank you for this post.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gabe Vega
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> (623) 565-9357
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 6:45 PM, "david hertweck"
>>>>> <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company
>>>>>> I found the best approach is:
>>>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of
>>>>>> the box, make it work.
>>>>>> 2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they
>>>>>> are not as effective as other people they put in the extra time so
>>>>>> we should be willing to do this.
>>>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours
>>>>>> can not interfere with others.
>>>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that
>>>>>> person help you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X"
>>>>>> accessible for you.
>>>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in
>>>>>> this forum but not at work.
>>>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and
>>>>>> certainly more responsibilities than you do, so you should never
>>>>>> add to them for accessibility problems.
>>>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company
>>>>>> for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> through out my work life
>>>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: majolls at cox.net
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary and all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you
>>>>>> "complain"?  If you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do
>>>>>> (too much) you are perceived as a burden ... and managers would
>>>>>> rather not deal with you and get someone else that doesn't have
>>>>>> the requirement that you do.  I work for a large corporation.  I
>>>>>> found that while managers can be sympathetic, others just don't
>>>>>> care.  it really depends on your luck of the draw regarding what
>>>>>> manager you do get.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A
>>>>>> presenter would be running his demo, and the display was up on the
>>>>>> "big screen". Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I
>>>>>> was just too far away and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced
>>>>>> concern, what I mostly got was "just do your best" ... which was
> absolutely no help.
>>>>>> I finally came up with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a
>>>>>> separate monitor that can be placed on a table that I can sit
>>>>>> close to".  That idea really worked, but it took me ... not them
>>>>>> ... to come up with the idea.  The managers ... who are supposed
>>>>>> to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what might
>>>>>> work.  And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>>>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the
>>>>>> application changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers
>>>>>> have priorities on what they have to get done.  When you require
>>>>>> someone to sit with you (meaning time and money) or when you ask
>>>>>> your manager to help you ... they'll do it as long as it isn't
>>>>>> excessive ... meaning as long as it doesn't take a lot of time and
>>>>>> money.  If it does, you're kind of on your own.  And as far as
>>>>>> them modifying software to be accessible ... that's only an option
>>>>>> if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business requirements"
> they have to get done first.
>>>>>> Where I'm at, that's always the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility
>>>>>> programming so we can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things
>>>>>> to say, but I've only had 35 years of experience in dealing with
>>>>>> this.  And it doesn't sound like the federal government is any
>>>>>> better than private industry.  People (managers) are people no
>>>>>> matter where you go I suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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