[nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again

Tue Feb 19 23:57:37 UTC 2013

Where did this statement about "using assistants" means you can't
claim to be successful?

If I hire and manage readers, which is what assistants are, why wouldn't that qualify as me being successful?

If I hire and manage drivers, which is what assistants are, why would that qualify as me being successful?

Jim

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 05:51:20PM -0600, Bryan Schulz wrote:
> hi,
> 
> this is true and swapping/trading job tasks helps but it's also not right
> for someone to claim to be successful when they had an assistant for 30
> years.
> Bryan Schulz
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again
> 
> 
> >Hi, John. I like what you are saying, which I interpret to mean, "Don't
> >blame the victim for being the victim."
> >
> >I know I have been extremely lucky; I did not determine my level of
> >motivation, my intelligence, or whether or not I was born with pleasing or
> >repulsive looks. For what I have I can only be grateful.
> >
> >Admitting all of this, I do worry that folks are not doing today what many
> >did in our day to find jobs. Like Steve and Mike, I fear that
> >accessibility
> >has come to mean what the computer and I can do together, and not what I,
> >along with a computer and perhaps a person, can do.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
> >Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:38 PM
> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessiable Training - again
> >
> >Well, not to dispute anything you say, Steve, but it's not particularly
> >relevant to the topic at hand. I brought up the fairness issue because I
> >felt the list was getting dangerously close to blaming blind people
> >themselves for being unemployed. There is a huge, huge difference between
> >advising people that they should be prepared to put in extra hours to keep
> >up with their sighted counterparts and telling them it's their own fault
> >if
> >they can't keep up.
> >
> >I'll be the first to admit that some blind people just need a kick in the
> >fanny. But that's a tiny minority. And it steams my wheaties when those of
> >us who've made it act superior to those who haven't.  That hurts us all.
> >Whether we like it or not, we're all tied together to a great degree. When
> >any of us fails, it makes it harder for the others.
> >There is no better example of a rising tide lifting all boats than with
> >disability rights.
> >
> >On 2/18/2013 2:42 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> >>John,
> >>
> >>This topic of the fairness of life is one that I have thought about a
> >>good deal so I could not resist responding.  To start with, though, I
> >>readily accept that blindness is a major barrier to getting and
> >>keeping a job.  It is also a major adjustment for those who had vision
> >>and lost it, although there are adjustments that those of us who have
> >>been blind have to make as well.  At least for me, saying that life isn't
> >fair for anyone is not a means to discount the struggles of the unemployed
> >blind person.  However, it does define how I look at aspects of life.  I
> >do
> >not think that saying life is not fair to anyone is saying that it is
> >equally unfair.  Certainly there are those who experience less unfairness
> >than others.
> >>
> >>Still, I would rather be blind in Minnesota than be a sighted woman in
> >>many countries where women are denied self-determination for religious
> >>or cultural reasons.  Perhaps that seems like a no-brainer, but life
> >>isn't fair to them.  There are other segments of the world's population
> >with whom I would not wish to trade places, even if it meant having
> >vision.
> >I could go down a list of people who have normal vision with whom I am
> >acquainted but would not wish to trade places even if it meant getting
> >their
> >sight.
> >>I can say that if I had normal vision and all other things were the
> >>same, I would likely have an easier time doing my current job and
> >>perhaps would do it better.  However, it is a large assumption to say
> >>that all other things would be the same.  Had I been sighted, I would
> >>very likely have spent time serving in Vietnam, for example, and that
> >>changed a lot of people, mostly for the worse.  I may not have stuck with
> >college, not feeling as strongly that it was important for employment.  In
> >short, I won't tell you that I never wish I had sight, but I can honestly
> >say that I do not take it for granted that I would be better off if I had
> >not been born blind.
> >>
> >>It affects how I look at what we need from society.  I don't think
> >>society can make life fair for everyone by compensating for all of the
> >>unfairness because there are many different kinds of unfairness.
> >>However, I believe it is in society's interest as well as our interest to
> >try to make things accessible, for example, because it means we can more
> >likely contribute to society.  This certainly benefits me, but it benefits
> >society as well as a whole.
> >>
> >>It is far too easy to single blindness out when considering what is
> >>fair or not fair and to make the unfairness a reason not to do what
> >>one can to deal with one's blindness.  Yet, there is truly unfairness
> >>in how blindness is viewed by the public, and that certainly plays a
> >>large role in our high unemployment rate.  How I am viewed by society can
> >change and I can even play a role in making that change.  Nothing
> >currently
> >available will change the fact that I am blind, though, so I see myself as
> >needing to make the most of what I am and not spend too much time wishing
> >I
> >were something different.
> >>
> >>Best regards,
> >>
> >>Steve Jacobson
> >>
> >>On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:30 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>
> >>>But it's not true that life is unfair for everyone.  The vast
> >>>majority of people never have to overcome a challenge like blindness.
> >>
> >>>This was driven home to me a few years ago when I wanted to change jobs.
> >>>Until I went blind, I had never been turned down for a job I'd
> >>>interviewed for. I mean that literally. Since I got my degree, I had
> >>>never been turned down after interviewing for a job. Sometimes I had
> >>>several offers at once but I had never been turned down. The
> >>>discrimination I faced after I went blind came as quite a shock to
> >>>me. I couldn't believe the way most people paid way, way more
> >>>attention to my disability than my resume. One woman outright refused
> >>>to interview me because she didn't believe I could use a computer at
> >>>all. And that was for a job that was, frankly, beneath me. Of course,
> >>>I just passed that woman off as an idiot. But if I had really needed
> >>>that job, that would have hurt.
> >>
> >>>In my opinion, this lack of empathy those of us who have made it show
> >>>toward those who have not is a huge problem. I think it greatly
> >>>undermines our ability to get anything done. My opinion is that those
> >>>of us who have made it are obligated to try to make it easier for the
> >>>next guy. After all, oour paths were smoothed by those who came
> >>>before us. I can show you messages where I've criticized kenneth
> >>>Jernigan tremendously. I have huge problems with a lot of things he said
> >and did.
> >>>But there is no question that none of us would be where we are
> >>>without him and one heck of a lot of other people like him.
> >>
> >>>On 2/17/2013 5:59 PM, david hertweck wrote:
> >>>>You are 100% correct, but this is true for every one regardless if
> >>>>they have a handicap or not.
> >>>>Who ever said life is fare or even should be fare.  It is a matter
> >>>>of how much do we want to have a job.
> >>>>I get what you are saying it makes me very angry when it is such a
> >>>>pain to access something that is trivial for a sighted person.
> >>>>
> >>>>One of the ideas I am playing with is how to show companies how they
> >>>>can make a larger profit by making their products accessible.
> >>>>Requiring this by law only gets you so far.
> >>>>
> >>>>Another idea there seams to be a large amount of talent on this
> >>>>list, if some one has an need lets jointly try and solve it.
> >>>>
> >>>>thanks.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message----- From: John G. Heim
> >>>>Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:12 PM
> >>>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I don't mean to question the value of the advice given below. It's
> >>>>all true, of course. But lets not start blaming blind people for
> >>>>accessibility problems. The truth is that to compete against sighted
> >>>>people, you often have to be even more mentally tough and work
> >>>>harder than they do. But lets face it, that's not really fair.
> >>>>And there is another side to this, you can do everything right and
> >>>>still fail. You might work your tail off establishing a career and
> >>>>then if the vendors of technology products you use make them
> >>>>inaccessible, well you are screwed.
> >>>>
> >>>>I would never question the value of tips on how a blind person can
> >>>>be the perfect employee. That is one necessary ingredient in
> >>>>building a successful career. You can't succeed without doing the
> >>>>thngs listed below. But they don't guarantee success.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On Feb 15, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Gabe Vega Via Iphone4S wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Hell yeah! This post states everything I think. And I believe this
> >>>>>is what blind people forget all the time. Maybe you all should read
> >>>>>this over and over and over again. Thank you for this post.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Gabe Vega
> >>>>>Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>(623) 565-9357
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Feb 15, 2013, at 6:45 PM, "david hertweck"
> >>>>><david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company
> >>>>>>I found the best approach is:
> >>>>>>1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of
> >>>>>>the box, make it work.
> >>>>>>2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they
> >>>>>>are not as effective as other people they put in the extra time so
> >>>>>>we should be willing to do this.
> >>>>>>3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours
> >>>>>>can not interfere with others.
> >>>>>>4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that
> >>>>>>person help you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X"
> >>>>>>accessible for you.
> >>>>>>5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in
> >>>>>>this forum but not at work.
> >>>>>>6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and
> >>>>>>certainly more responsibilities than you do, so you should never
> >>>>>>add to them for accessibility problems.
> >>>>>>7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company
> >>>>>>for you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>thanks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>through out my work life
> >>>>>>and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: majolls at cox.net
> >>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
> >>>>>>To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Gary and all
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you
> >>>>>>"complain"?  If you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do
> >>>>>>(too much) you are perceived as a burden ... and managers would
> >>>>>>rather not deal with you and get someone else that doesn't have
> >>>>>>the requirement that you do.  I work for a large corporation.  I
> >>>>>>found that while managers can be sympathetic, others just don't
> >>>>>>care.  it really depends on your luck of the draw regarding what
> >>>>>>manager you do get.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
> >>>>>>presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A
> >>>>>>presenter would be running his demo, and the display was up on the
> >>>>>>"big screen". Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I
> >>>>>>was just too far away and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced
> >>>>>>concern, what I mostly got was "just do your best" ... which was
> >absolutely no help.
> >>>>>>I finally came up with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a
> >>>>>>separate monitor that can be placed on a table that I can sit
> >>>>>>close to".  That idea really worked, but it took me ... not them
> >>>>>>... to come up with the idea.  The managers ... who are supposed
> >>>>>>to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what might
> >>>>>>work.  And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
> >>>>>>best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the
> >>>>>>application changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers
> >>>>>>have priorities on what they have to get done.  When you require
> >>>>>>someone to sit with you (meaning time and money) or when you ask
> >>>>>>your manager to help you ... they'll do it as long as it isn't
> >>>>>>excessive ... meaning as long as it doesn't take a lot of time and
> >>>>>>money.  If it does, you're kind of on your own.  And as far as
> >>>>>>them modifying software to be accessible ... that's only an option
> >>>>>>if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business requirements"
> >they have to get done first.
> >>>>>>Where I'm at, that's always the case.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility
> >>>>>>programming so we can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things
> >>>>>>to say, but I've only had 35 years of experience in dealing with
> >>>>>>this.  And it doesn't sound like the federal government is any
> >>>>>>better than private industry.  People (managers) are people no
> >>>>>>matter where you go I suppose.
> >>>>>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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