[nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again
Larry Wayland
lhwayland at sbcglobal.net
Wed Feb 20 03:24:18 UTC 2013
Gary: I have the Arkansas law for you. Contact me at
lhwayland at sbcglobal.net
and I will send it to you.
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Wunder
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 12:40 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again
Hi, John. I like what you are saying, which I interpret to mean, "Don't
blame the victim for being the victim."
I know I have been extremely lucky; I did not determine my level of
motivation, my intelligence, or whether or not I was born with pleasing or
repulsive looks. For what I have I can only be grateful.
Admitting all of this, I do worry that folks are not doing today what many
did in our day to find jobs. Like Steve and Mike, I fear that accessibility
has come to mean what the computer and I can do together, and not what I,
along with a computer and perhaps a person, can do.
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:38 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessiable Training - again
Well, not to dispute anything you say, Steve, but it's not particularly
relevant to the topic at hand. I brought up the fairness issue because I
felt the list was getting dangerously close to blaming blind people
themselves for being unemployed. There is a huge, huge difference between
advising people that they should be prepared to put in extra hours to keep
up with their sighted counterparts and telling them it's their own fault if
they can't keep up.
I'll be the first to admit that some blind people just need a kick in the
fanny. But that's a tiny minority. And it steams my wheaties when those of
us who've made it act superior to those who haven't. That hurts us all.
Whether we like it or not, we're all tied together to a great degree. When
any of us fails, it makes it harder for the others.
There is no better example of a rising tide lifting all boats than with
disability rights.
On 2/18/2013 2:42 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> John,
>
> This topic of the fairness of life is one that I have thought about a
> good deal so I could not resist responding. To start with, though, I
> readily accept that blindness is a major barrier to getting and
> keeping a job. It is also a major adjustment for those who had vision
> and lost it, although there are adjustments that those of us who have
> been blind have to make as well. At least for me, saying that life
> isn't
fair for anyone is not a means to discount the struggles of the unemployed
blind person. However, it does define how I look at aspects of life. I do
not think that saying life is not fair to anyone is saying that it is
equally unfair. Certainly there are those who experience less unfairness
than others.
>
> Still, I would rather be blind in Minnesota than be a sighted woman in
> many countries where women are denied self-determination for religious
> or cultural reasons. Perhaps that seems like a no-brainer, but life
> isn't fair to them. There are other segments of the world's
> population
with whom I would not wish to trade places, even if it meant having vision.
I could go down a list of people who have normal vision with whom I am
acquainted but would not wish to trade places even if it meant getting their
sight.
> I can say that if I had normal vision and all other things were the
> same, I would likely have an easier time doing my current job and
> perhaps would do it better. However, it is a large assumption to say
> that all other things would be the same. Had I been sighted, I would
> very likely have spent time serving in Vietnam, for example, and that
> changed a lot of people, mostly for the worse. I may not have stuck
> with
college, not feeling as strongly that it was important for employment. In
short, I won't tell you that I never wish I had sight, but I can honestly
say that I do not take it for granted that I would be better off if I had
not been born blind.
>
> It affects how I look at what we need from society. I don't think
> society can make life fair for everyone by compensating for all of the
> unfairness because there are many different kinds of unfairness.
> However, I believe it is in society's interest as well as our interest
> to
try to make things accessible, for example, because it means we can more
likely contribute to society. This certainly benefits me, but it benefits
society as well as a whole.
>
> It is far too easy to single blindness out when considering what is
> fair or not fair and to make the unfairness a reason not to do what
> one can to deal with one's blindness. Yet, there is truly unfairness
> in how blindness is viewed by the public, and that certainly plays a
> large role in our high unemployment rate. How I am viewed by society
> can
change and I can even play a role in making that change. Nothing currently
available will change the fact that I am blind, though, so I see myself as
needing to make the most of what I am and not spend too much time wishing I
were something different.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:30 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>> But it's not true that life is unfair for everyone. The vast
>> majority of people never have to overcome a challenge like blindness.
>
>> This was driven home to me a few years ago when I wanted to change jobs.
>> Until I went blind, I had never been turned down for a job I'd
>> interviewed for. I mean that literally. Since I got my degree, I had
>> never been turned down after interviewing for a job. Sometimes I had
>> several offers at once but I had never been turned down. The
>> discrimination I faced after I went blind came as quite a shock to
>> me. I couldn't believe the way most people paid way, way more
>> attention to my disability than my resume. One woman outright refused
>> to interview me because she didn't believe I could use a computer at
>> all. And that was for a job that was, frankly, beneath me. Of course,
>> I just passed that woman off as an idiot. But if I had really needed
>> that job, that would have hurt.
>
>> In my opinion, this lack of empathy those of us who have made it show
>> toward those who have not is a huge problem. I think it greatly
>> undermines our ability to get anything done. My opinion is that those
>> of us who have made it are obligated to try to make it easier for the
>> next guy. After all, oour paths were smoothed by those who came
>> before us. I can show you messages where I've criticized kenneth
>> Jernigan tremendously. I have huge problems with a lot of things he
>> said
and did.
>> But there is no question that none of us would be where we are
>> without him and one heck of a lot of other people like him.
>
>> On 2/17/2013 5:59 PM, david hertweck wrote:
>>> You are 100% correct, but this is true for every one regardless if
>>> they have a handicap or not.
>>> Who ever said life is fare or even should be fare. It is a matter
>>> of how much do we want to have a job.
>>> I get what you are saying it makes me very angry when it is such a
>>> pain to access something that is trivial for a sighted person.
>>>
>>> One of the ideas I am playing with is how to show companies how they
>>> can make a larger profit by making their products accessible.
>>> Requiring this by law only gets you so far.
>>>
>>> Another idea there seams to be a large amount of talent on this
>>> list, if some one has an need lets jointly try and solve it.
>>>
>>> thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: John G. Heim
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:12 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't mean to question the value of the advice given below. It's
>>> all true, of course. But lets not start blaming blind people for
>>> accessibility problems. The truth is that to compete against sighted
>>> people, you often have to be even more mentally tough and work
>>> harder than they do. But lets face it, that's not really fair.
>>> And there is another side to this, you can do everything right and
>>> still fail. You might work your tail off establishing a career and
>>> then if the vendors of technology products you use make them
>>> inaccessible, well you are screwed.
>>>
>>> I would never question the value of tips on how a blind person can
>>> be the perfect employee. That is one necessary ingredient in
>>> building a successful career. You can't succeed without doing the
>>> thngs listed below. But they don't guarantee success.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Gabe Vega Via Iphone4S wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hell yeah! This post states everything I think. And I believe this
>>>> is what blind people forget all the time. Maybe you all should read
>>>> this over and over and over again. Thank you for this post.
>>>>
>>>> Gabe Vega
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> (623) 565-9357
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 6:45 PM, "david hertweck"
>>>> <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company
>>>>> I found the best approach is:
>>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of
>>>>> the box, make it work.
>>>>> 2. Put in extra hours. I know a lot of sighted engineers if they
>>>>> are not as effective as other people they put in the extra time so
>>>>> we should be willing to do this.
>>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours
>>>>> can not interfere with others.
>>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that
>>>>> person help you. What does not work is to ask someone to make "X"
>>>>> accessible for you.
>>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in
>>>>> this forum but not at work.
>>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and
>>>>> certainly more responsibilities than you do, so you should never
>>>>> add to them for accessibility problems.
>>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company
>>>>> for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> through out my work life
>>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: majolls at cox.net
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary and all
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head. To what end do you
>>>>> "complain"? If you don't, you don't get anywhere. And if you do
>>>>> (too much) you are perceived as a burden ... and managers would
>>>>> rather not deal with you and get someone else that doesn't have
>>>>> the requirement that you do. I work for a large corporation. I
>>>>> found that while managers can be sympathetic, others just don't
>>>>> care. it really depends on your luck of the draw regarding what
>>>>> manager you do get.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall. A
>>>>> presenter would be running his demo, and the display was up on the
>>>>> "big screen". Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen. I
>>>>> was just too far away and I'm just too blind. When I voiced
>>>>> concern, what I mostly got was "just do your best" ... which was
absolutely no help.
>>>>> I finally came up with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a
>>>>> separate monitor that can be placed on a table that I can sit
>>>>> close to". That idea really worked, but it took me ... not them
>>>>> ... to come up with the idea. The managers ... who are supposed
>>>>> to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what might
>>>>> work. And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>>>
>>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the
>>>>> application changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers
>>>>> have priorities on what they have to get done. When you require
>>>>> someone to sit with you (meaning time and money) or when you ask
>>>>> your manager to help you ... they'll do it as long as it isn't
>>>>> excessive ... meaning as long as it doesn't take a lot of time and
>>>>> money. If it does, you're kind of on your own. And as far as
>>>>> them modifying software to be accessible ... that's only an option
>>>>> if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business requirements"
they have to get done first.
>>>>> Where I'm at, that's always the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility
>>>>> programming so we can do it ourselves. Wish I had better things
>>>>> to say, but I've only had 35 years of experience in dealing with
>>>>> this. And it doesn't sound like the federal government is any
>>>>> better than private industry. People (managers) are people no
>>>>> matter where you go I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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