[nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again

Thu Feb 21 00:07:01 UTC 2013

hi,

sure you can as you had the initiative and methods to solve/acquire 
adaptations for your situation and the employer didn't hire another person 
to constantly sit with you.
Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again

> Hi, Bryan. I want to ask whether I can claim to have been successful when 
> I
> hired my own reader to handle those things I could not do myself either
> because there were no devices to read print at the beginning of my career 
> or
> because later in that career there were things my software could not read?
> My take was that I had a good job and could and should spend a bit of 
> money
> to make money. Is this in conflict with success?
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:51 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again
>
> hi,
>
> this is true and swapping/trading job tasks helps but it's also not right
> for someone to claim to be successful when they had an assistant for 30
> years.
> Bryan Schulz
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again
>
>
>> Hi, John. I like what you are saying, which I interpret to mean, "Don't
>> blame the victim for being the victim."
>>
>> I know I have been extremely lucky; I did not determine my level of
>> motivation, my intelligence, or whether or not I was born with pleasing 
>> or
>> repulsive looks. For what I have I can only be grateful.
>>
>> Admitting all of this, I do worry that folks are not doing today what 
>> many
>> did in our day to find jobs. Like Steve and Mike, I fear that
>> accessibility
>> has come to mean what the computer and I can do together, and not what I,
>> along with a computer and perhaps a person, can do.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:38 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessiable Training - again
>>
>> Well, not to dispute anything you say, Steve, but it's not particularly
>> relevant to the topic at hand. I brought up the fairness issue because I
>> felt the list was getting dangerously close to blaming blind people
>> themselves for being unemployed. There is a huge, huge difference between
>> advising people that they should be prepared to put in extra hours to 
>> keep
>> up with their sighted counterparts and telling them it's their own fault
>> if
>> they can't keep up.
>>
>> I'll be the first to admit that some blind people just need a kick in the
>> fanny. But that's a tiny minority. And it steams my wheaties when those 
>> of
>> us who've made it act superior to those who haven't.  That hurts us all.
>> Whether we like it or not, we're all tied together to a great degree. 
>> When
>> any of us fails, it makes it harder for the others.
>> There is no better example of a rising tide lifting all boats than with
>> disability rights.
>>
>> On 2/18/2013 2:42 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>> John,
>>>
>>> This topic of the fairness of life is one that I have thought about a
>>> good deal so I could not resist responding.  To start with, though, I
>>> readily accept that blindness is a major barrier to getting and
>>> keeping a job.  It is also a major adjustment for those who had vision
>>> and lost it, although there are adjustments that those of us who have
>>> been blind have to make as well.  At least for me, saying that life 
>>> isn't
>> fair for anyone is not a means to discount the struggles of the 
>> unemployed
>> blind person.  However, it does define how I look at aspects of life.  I
>> do
>> not think that saying life is not fair to anyone is saying that it is
>> equally unfair.  Certainly there are those who experience less unfairness
>> than others.
>>>
>>> Still, I would rather be blind in Minnesota than be a sighted woman in
>>> many countries where women are denied self-determination for religious
>>> or cultural reasons.  Perhaps that seems like a no-brainer, but life
>>> isn't fair to them.  There are other segments of the world's population
>> with whom I would not wish to trade places, even if it meant having
>> vision.
>> I could go down a list of people who have normal vision with whom I am
>> acquainted but would not wish to trade places even if it meant getting
>> their
>> sight.
>>> I can say that if I had normal vision and all other things were the
>>> same, I would likely have an easier time doing my current job and
>>> perhaps would do it better.  However, it is a large assumption to say
>>> that all other things would be the same.  Had I been sighted, I would
>>> very likely have spent time serving in Vietnam, for example, and that
>>> changed a lot of people, mostly for the worse.  I may not have stuck 
>>> with
>> college, not feeling as strongly that it was important for employment. 
>> In
>> short, I won't tell you that I never wish I had sight, but I can honestly
>> say that I do not take it for granted that I would be better off if I had
>> not been born blind.
>>>
>>> It affects how I look at what we need from society.  I don't think
>>> society can make life fair for everyone by compensating for all of the
>>> unfairness because there are many different kinds of unfairness.
>>> However, I believe it is in society's interest as well as our interest 
>>> to
>> try to make things accessible, for example, because it means we can more
>> likely contribute to society.  This certainly benefits me, but it 
>> benefits
>> society as well as a whole.
>>>
>>> It is far too easy to single blindness out when considering what is
>>> fair or not fair and to make the unfairness a reason not to do what
>>> one can to deal with one's blindness.  Yet, there is truly unfairness
>>> in how blindness is viewed by the public, and that certainly plays a
>>> large role in our high unemployment rate.  How I am viewed by society 
>>> can
>> change and I can even play a role in making that change.  Nothing
>> currently
>> available will change the fact that I am blind, though, so I see myself 
>> as
>> needing to make the most of what I am and not spend too much time wishing
>> I
>> were something different.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:30 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> But it's not true that life is unfair for everyone.  The vast
>>>> majority of people never have to overcome a challenge like blindness.
>>>
>>>> This was driven home to me a few years ago when I wanted to change 
>>>> jobs.
>>>> Until I went blind, I had never been turned down for a job I'd
>>>> interviewed for. I mean that literally. Since I got my degree, I had
>>>> never been turned down after interviewing for a job. Sometimes I had
>>>> several offers at once but I had never been turned down. The
>>>> discrimination I faced after I went blind came as quite a shock to
>>>> me. I couldn't believe the way most people paid way, way more
>>>> attention to my disability than my resume. One woman outright refused
>>>> to interview me because she didn't believe I could use a computer at
>>>> all. And that was for a job that was, frankly, beneath me. Of course,
>>>> I just passed that woman off as an idiot. But if I had really needed
>>>> that job, that would have hurt.
>>>
>>>> In my opinion, this lack of empathy those of us who have made it show
>>>> toward those who have not is a huge problem. I think it greatly
>>>> undermines our ability to get anything done. My opinion is that those
>>>> of us who have made it are obligated to try to make it easier for the
>>>> next guy. After all, oour paths were smoothed by those who came
>>>> before us. I can show you messages where I've criticized kenneth
>>>> Jernigan tremendously. I have huge problems with a lot of things he 
>>>> said
>> and did.
>>>> But there is no question that none of us would be where we are
>>>> without him and one heck of a lot of other people like him.
>>>
>>>> On 2/17/2013 5:59 PM, david hertweck wrote:
>>>>> You are 100% correct, but this is true for every one regardless if
>>>>> they have a handicap or not.
>>>>> Who ever said life is fare or even should be fare.  It is a matter
>>>>> of how much do we want to have a job.
>>>>> I get what you are saying it makes me very angry when it is such a
>>>>> pain to access something that is trivial for a sighted person.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the ideas I am playing with is how to show companies how they
>>>>> can make a larger profit by making their products accessible.
>>>>> Requiring this by law only gets you so far.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another idea there seams to be a large amount of talent on this
>>>>> list, if some one has an need lets jointly try and solve it.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: John G. Heim
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:12 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't mean to question the value of the advice given below. It's
>>>>> all true, of course. But lets not start blaming blind people for
>>>>> accessibility problems. The truth is that to compete against sighted
>>>>> people, you often have to be even more mentally tough and work
>>>>> harder than they do. But lets face it, that's not really fair.
>>>>> And there is another side to this, you can do everything right and
>>>>> still fail. You might work your tail off establishing a career and
>>>>> then if the vendors of technology products you use make them
>>>>> inaccessible, well you are screwed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would never question the value of tips on how a blind person can
>>>>> be the perfect employee. That is one necessary ingredient in
>>>>> building a successful career. You can't succeed without doing the
>>>>> thngs listed below. But they don't guarantee success.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Gabe Vega Via Iphone4S wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hell yeah! This post states everything I think. And I believe this
>>>>>> is what blind people forget all the time. Maybe you all should read
>>>>>> this over and over and over again. Thank you for this post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gabe Vega
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> (623) 565-9357
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 6:45 PM, "david hertweck"
>>>>>> <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company
>>>>>>> I found the best approach is:
>>>>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of
>>>>>>> the box, make it work.
>>>>>>> 2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they
>>>>>>> are not as effective as other people they put in the extra time so
>>>>>>> we should be willing to do this.
>>>>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours
>>>>>>> can not interfere with others.
>>>>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that
>>>>>>> person help you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X"
>>>>>>> accessible for you.
>>>>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in
>>>>>>> this forum but not at work.
>>>>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and
>>>>>>> certainly more responsibilities than you do, so you should never
>>>>>>> add to them for accessibility problems.
>>>>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company
>>>>>>> for you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> through out my work life
>>>>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: majolls at cox.net
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary and all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you
>>>>>>> "complain"?  If you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do
>>>>>>> (too much) you are perceived as a burden ... and managers would
>>>>>>> rather not deal with you and get someone else that doesn't have
>>>>>>> the requirement that you do.  I work for a large corporation.  I
>>>>>>> found that while managers can be sympathetic, others just don't
>>>>>>> care.  it really depends on your luck of the draw regarding what
>>>>>>> manager you do get.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A
>>>>>>> presenter would be running his demo, and the display was up on the
>>>>>>> "big screen". Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I
>>>>>>> was just too far away and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced
>>>>>>> concern, what I mostly got was "just do your best" ... which was
>> absolutely no help.
>>>>>>> I finally came up with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a
>>>>>>> separate monitor that can be placed on a table that I can sit
>>>>>>> close to".  That idea really worked, but it took me ... not them
>>>>>>> ... to come up with the idea.  The managers ... who are supposed
>>>>>>> to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what might
>>>>>>> work.  And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>>>>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the
>>>>>>> application changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers
>>>>>>> have priorities on what they have to get done.  When you require
>>>>>>> someone to sit with you (meaning time and money) or when you ask
>>>>>>> your manager to help you ... they'll do it as long as it isn't
>>>>>>> excessive ... meaning as long as it doesn't take a lot of time and
>>>>>>> money.  If it does, you're kind of on your own.  And as far as
>>>>>>> them modifying software to be accessible ... that's only an option
>>>>>>> if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business requirements"
>> they have to get done first.
>>>>>>> Where I'm at, that's always the case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility
>>>>>>> programming so we can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things
>>>>>>> to say, but I've only had 35 years of experience in dealing with
>>>>>>> this.  And it doesn't sound like the federal government is any
>>>>>>> better than private industry.  People (managers) are people no
>>>>>>> matter where you go I suppose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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