[nfbcs] bs is bs

Bryan Schulz b.schulz at sbcglobal.net
Wed Feb 20 23:51:53 UTC 2013 

hi,

just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and he 
said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting your and 
the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in something else.
Bryan Schulz


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs


> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is relevant
> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true and 
> then
> be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person working
> competitively in the field
>
> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your 
> messages
> to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how people get to be
> programmers. This is why things may not be accessible. Here is why people
> code as they do. Here is how a project gets started and how folks are
> rewarded.
>
> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I don't
> understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and bringing the
> experience we need if we're to really discuss and understand.
>
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>
> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>
> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore, take your
> enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This will be 
> difficult
> without some formal training, so look for open source projects, 
> non-profits,
> or a niche that you know a lot about.
>
> Jim
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes, all
>> you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn a
>> million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than you'll
>> ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all the fun
>> out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>> bill
>>
>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>> > Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>> >
>> > It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>> > science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many
>> > other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>> > architects don't have a computer science degree.
>> >
>> > However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>> > computer programming job.
>> >
>> > Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>> > to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>> >
>> >
>> > <http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-making-big-m
>> > oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/>
>> >
>> > It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>> > android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
>> > they'll need to use statement based configuration language to layout
>> > their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>> >
>> > I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>> > is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned
>> > about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>> > write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
>> >
>> > Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put it
>> > in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to think
>> > about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay for it.
>> > It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>> > people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>> > code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>> > are found.
>> >
>> > None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>> > experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>> > expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>> >
>> > Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I like
>> > computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies that
>> > you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding up
>> > applications to run on other people's computers.  You're not very
>> > likely to find gainful employment that way.
>> >
>> > The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>> >
>> >   1) Doing tech work for a largish.  Handling help desk phone calls,
>> >      setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>> >   2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can contribute
>> >      toward an application.  So, for example, if you're a psychology
>> >      major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>> >      written.  You could partner with a programmer and come up with a
>> >      new app that might make money.
>> >
>> > I hope this helps,
>> >
>> > Jim
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>> >> dont agree at all.  he's all ready got a bachelors in another field.
>> >> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>> >> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>> >>
>> >> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>> >> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program
>> >> mobile devices.  no cost to you for distribution and no cost for
> marketing...
>> >> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>> >>
>> >> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff.  just make some
>> >> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them around
>> >> on your resume to consulting companies that might give you a job
>> >> online without having to move.
>> >>
>> >> bill
>> >>
>> >> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us> wrote:
>> >> > Enough said.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> >> > majolls at cox.net
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>> >> >
>> >> > I couldn't agree more with your advice.  A 4 year B.S. degree is
>> >> > ABSOLUTELY a requirement.  There's a reason why a computer
>> >> > science major requires
>> >> > 36
>> >> > (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study.  It takes awhile to get
>> >> > your head around how tothink about the computer, how they work,
>> >> > etc... And, there is really that much material to learn.  And not
>> >> > only do you learn the computer science topics in your degree
>> >> > program, but you also get the math and english background you'll
>> >> > need for solving problems and writing you'll need to communicate.
>> >> > A college education is really a must.  There is no substitute.
>> >> >  Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to
>> >> > study a lot of
>> >> > the topics you will be exposed to ... computer topics that is.   You
>> >> > might
>> >> > think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but
>> >> > there are a LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study
>> >> > because you don't know what needs to be learned.  Bottom line ..
>> >> > there's a lot to learn.  The degree is the way to go.
>> >> >
>> >> > And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ...
>> >> > "16 months ..
>> >> > get the education .. get the job".  I've seen family members try
>> >> > the quick fix and they got screwed - they were charged $25,000
>> >> > for what amounted to a 2-year degree when they could have gotten
>> >> > that training for 1/4 the cost at a Junior College.  And, they
>> >> > didn't get the same level of education.
>> >> > It's
>> >> > just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a
>> >> > rite of passage - as the proof that you're qualified.  That's
>> >> > sound advice.  Get the degree, then the business knows you're
>> >> > qualified.  Where I program, you can't even walk in the door
>> >> > unless you don't have a degree.
>> >> >
>> >> > ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> >> >> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science
>> >> >> program to get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to
>> >> >> get into one of these programs many states have to teach blind
>> >> >> people computer programming?
>> >> >> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting a
>> >> >> job as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of
>> >> >> experience.  I wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn near
>> >> >> it. Very few companies would even let you pay them to work on
>> >> >> their computers unless you have proven skills. You wouldn't  let
>> >> >> a self-taught doctor operate on you, would you?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that
>> >> >> just require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even
>> >> >> require an Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of
>> >> >> applicants. In fact, I doubt there even are such jobs. I hate to
>> >> >> be so negative but I don't think you can get a job just by
>> >> >> teaching yourself programming even if you are really good. You
>> >> >> have to have some way to document that you know what you are
>> >> >> doing or you are going to have a very, very hard time finding a 
>> >> >> job.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then
>> >> >> you are already in the system and they can find you a position
>> >> >> at some place as an affirmative action hire.  Don't knock it -- 
>> >> >> anything to get your foot in the door works.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or better.
>> >> >> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter but
>> >> >> they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that would
>> >> >> otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough job in one
>> >> >> particular way -- every few years the paradigm changes
>> >> >> completely and you have to relearn everything you ever knew. But
>> >> >> the basic understanding of computers and how they work you get
>> >> >> at a university makes that much, much easier.
>> >> >> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years
>> >> >> favors the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people
>> >> >> know how to make something work but they don't necessarily know 
>> >> >> why.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>> >> >> > Thanks Denise for that link.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >   Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and
>> >> >> > getting a general understanding of what computer science is.
>> >> >> > Are you a programmer? if so , what kind of programming do you
>> >> >> > do? How did you pick it up? and how long did it take you to
>> >> >> > become a good programmer to get a job.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >> > Zeeshan
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>> >> >> > <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Zeeshan
>> >> >> >> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you program
>> >> >> >> if you're blind? Answered Here<
>> >> >> >> http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if-
>> >> >> >> youre-
>> >> >> >> blind-answered-here
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> Denise
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan
>> >> >> >> <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Hi all,
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute
>> >> >> >>> beginner. As a legally blind person I want to ask you all if
>> >> >> >>> anyone has learned programming and computer science as a
>> >> >> >>> blind person. The things is I have already gotten my  degree
>> >> >> >>> in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not
>> >> >> >> sure
>> >> >> >>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>> >> >> >>> computer science/  programming? What resources did you use?
>> >> >> >>> how long did it take
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to
>> >> >> >>> land a job? I
>> >> >> >> am
>> >> >> >>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it
>> >> >> >>> own't really
>> >> >> >> help
>> >> >> >>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really
>> >> >> >>> want to learn computer science as I am looking to make a
>> >> >> >>> career change, and the future
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>> >> >> >>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not
>> >> >> >>> sure if I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in
>> >> >> >>> computer science. What is the job market like , in your 
>> >> >> >>> opinion?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and
>> >> >> >>> experiences, Thanks,
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> --
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Zeeshan Khan
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> ToiBooks
>> >> >> >>> www.toibooks.com
>> >> >> >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks
>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >>> nfbcs mailing list
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>> >> >> >>> info for
>> >> >> >>> nfbcs:
>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob
>> >> >> >>> %40gma
>> >> >> >>> il.com
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> *Dr Denise*
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>> >> >> >> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>> >> >> >> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low
>> >> >> >> vision
>> >> >> >> 423-573-6413
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on
>> >> >> >> PC, Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
>> >> >> >> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>> >> >> >> the one who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans
>> >> >> >> are incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they
>> >> >> >> are powerful beyond imagination.
>> >> >> >> --Albert Einstein
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>> >> >> >> --Walt Disney
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> >> com
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
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>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >> >
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>> >> >
>> >>
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