[nfbcs] bs is bs

Zeeshan Khan zeek786 at gmail.com
Thu Feb 21 01:18:38 UTC 2013 

@Jim
Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will take
me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that actually worth it
in that situation?
I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you cannot
make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or something like
that.

As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other one
about working in a large company help desk environment, would be difficult
to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most companies will
probably not hire.

What specific steps do you think I can take  on how to get started on
learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford online
course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to programming.

@ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to start. In
your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes my ultimate
goal is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just to get my foot in
the door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem goes on.

@John
Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you in.
It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years until I
can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into a field.
For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to land an
entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non profits are a
start, what other specific steps I can take to start learning and / or
gaining epxerience?

Thanks again everyone!
Zeeshan

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> hi,
>
> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and he
> said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting your and
> the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in something else.
> Bryan Schulz
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>
>
>  Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is relevant
>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true and
>> then
>> be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person working
>> competitively in the field
>>
>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>> messages
>> to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how people get to be
>> programmers. This is why things may not be accessible. Here is why people
>> code as they do. Here is how a project gets started and how folks are
>> rewarded.
>>
>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I don't
>> understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and bringing the
>> experience we need if we're to really discuss and understand.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>> On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>
>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>
>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore, take your
>> enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This will be
>> difficult
>> without some formal training, so look for open source projects,
>> non-profits,
>> or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>
>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes, all
>>> you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn a
>>> million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than you'll
>>> ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all the fun
>>> out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>> bill
>>>
>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>> > Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>> >
>>> > It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>> > science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>> > other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>> > architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>> >
>>> > However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>> > computer programming job.
>>> >
>>> > Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>> > to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-making-big-m>
>>> > oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>> >
>>> > It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>> > android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
>>> > they'll need to use statement based configuration language to layout
>>> > their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>> >
>>> > I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>> > is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned
>>> > about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>> > write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
>>> >
>>> > Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put it
>>> > in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to think
>>> > about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay for it.
>>> > It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>> > people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>> > code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>> > are found.
>>> >
>>> > None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>> > experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>> > expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>> >
>>> > Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I like
>>> > computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies that
>>> > you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding up
>>> > applications to run on other people's computers.  You're not very
>>> > likely to find gainful employment that way.
>>> >
>>> > The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>>> >
>>> >   1) Doing tech work for a largish.  Handling help desk phone calls,
>>> >      setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>>> >   2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can contribute
>>> >      toward an application.  So, for example, if you're a psychology
>>> >      major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>>> >      written.  You could partner with a programmer and come up with a
>>> >      new app that might make money.
>>> >
>>> > I hope this helps,
>>> >
>>> > Jim
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>> >> dont agree at all.  he's all ready got a bachelors in another field.
>>> >> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>>> >> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>>> >>
>>> >> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>>> >> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program
>>> >> mobile devices.  no cost to you for distribution and no cost for
>>>
>> marketing...
>>
>>> >> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>>> >>
>>> >> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff.  just make some
>>> >> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them around
>>> >> on your resume to consulting companies that might give you a job
>>> >> online without having to move.
>>> >>
>>> >> bill
>>> >>
>>> >> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us> wrote:
>>> >> > Enough said.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>> On Behalf Of
>>> >> > majolls at cox.net
>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I couldn't agree more with your advice.  A 4 year B.S. degree is
>>> >> > ABSOLUTELY a requirement.  There's a reason why a computer
>>> >> > science major requires
>>> >> > 36
>>> >> > (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study.  It takes awhile to get
>>> >> > your head around how tothink about the computer, how they work,
>>> >> > etc... And, there is really that much material to learn.  And not
>>> >> > only do you learn the computer science topics in your degree
>>> >> > program, but you also get the math and english background you'll
>>> >> > need for solving problems and writing you'll need to communicate.
>>> >> > A college education is really a must.  There is no substitute.
>>> >> >  Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to
>>> >> > study a lot of
>>> >> > the topics you will be exposed to ... computer topics that is.   You
>>> >> > might
>>> >> > think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but
>>> >> > there are a LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study
>>> >> > because you don't know what needs to be learned.  Bottom line ..
>>> >> > there's a lot to learn.  The degree is the way to go.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ...
>>> >> > "16 months ..
>>> >> > get the education .. get the job".  I've seen family members try
>>> >> > the quick fix and they got screwed - they were charged $25,000
>>> >> > for what amounted to a 2-year degree when they could have gotten
>>> >> > that training for 1/4 the cost at a Junior College.  And, they
>>> >> > didn't get the same level of education.
>>> >> > It's
>>> >> > just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a
>>> >> > rite of passage - as the proof that you're qualified.  That's
>>> >> > sound advice.  Get the degree, then the business knows you're
>>> >> > qualified.  Where I program, you can't even walk in the door
>>> >> > unless you don't have a degree.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>> >> >> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science
>>> >> >> program to get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to
>>> >> >> get into one of these programs many states have to teach blind
>>> >> >> people computer programming?
>>> >> >> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting a
>>> >> >> job as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of
>>> >> >> experience.  I wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn near
>>> >> >> it. Very few companies would even let you pay them to work on
>>> >> >> their computers unless you have proven skills. You wouldn't  let
>>> >> >> a self-taught doctor operate on you, would you?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that
>>> >> >> just require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even
>>> >> >> require an Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of
>>> >> >> applicants. In fact, I doubt there even are such jobs. I hate to
>>> >> >> be so negative but I don't think you can get a job just by
>>> >> >> teaching yourself programming even if you are really good. You
>>> >> >> have to have some way to document that you know what you are
>>> >> >> doing or you are going to have a very, very hard time finding a >>
>>> >> job.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then
>>> >> >> you are already in the system and they can find you a position
>>> >> >> at some place as an affirmative action hire.  Don't knock it -- >>
>>> >> anything to get your foot in the door works.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or better.
>>> >> >> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter but
>>> >> >> they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that would
>>> >> >> otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough job in one
>>> >> >> particular way -- every few years the paradigm changes
>>> >> >> completely and you have to relearn everything you ever knew. But
>>> >> >> the basic understanding of computers and how they work you get
>>> >> >> at a university makes that much, much easier.
>>> >> >> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years
>>> >> >> favors the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people
>>> >> >> know how to make something work but they don't necessarily know >>
>>> >> why.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>> >> >> > Thanks Denise for that link.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >   Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and
>>> >> >> > getting a general understanding of what computer science is.
>>> >> >> > Are you a programmer? if so , what kind of programming do you
>>> >> >> > do? How did you pick it up? and how long did it take you to
>>> >> >> > become a good programmer to get a job.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Thanks,
>>> >> >> > Zeeshan
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>>> >> >> > <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> Zeeshan
>>> >> >> >> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you program
>>> >> >> >> if you're blind? Answered Here<
>>> >> >> >> http://www.yourtechvision.com/**content/how-can-you-program-**
>>> if- <http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if->
>>> >> >> >> youre-
>>> >> >> >> blind-answered-here
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> Denise
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan
>>> >> >> >> <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>> Hi all,
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute
>>> >> >> >>> beginner. As a legally blind person I want to ask you all if
>>> >> >> >>> anyone has learned programming and computer science as a
>>> >> >> >>> blind person. The things is I have already gotten my  degree
>>> >> >> >>> in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not
>>> >> >> >> sure
>>> >> >> >>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>>> >> >> >>> computer science/  programming? What resources did you use?
>>> >> >> >>> how long did it take
>>> >> >> >> you
>>> >> >> >>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to
>>> >> >> >>> land a job? I
>>> >> >> >> am
>>> >> >> >>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it
>>> >> >> >>> own't really
>>> >> >> >> help
>>> >> >> >>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really
>>> >> >> >>> want to learn computer science as I am looking to make a
>>> >> >> >>> career change, and the future
>>> >> >> >> is
>>> >> >> >>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>>> >> >> >>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not
>>> >> >> >>> sure if I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in
>>> >> >> >>> computer science. What is the job market like , in your >> >>
>>> >>> opinion?
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and
>>> >> >> >>> experiences, Thanks,
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> --
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> Zeeshan Khan
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> ToiBooks
>>> >> >> >>> www.toibooks.com
>>> >> >> >>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks>
>>> >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>> >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> >> >> >>> info for
>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs:
>>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>> deniserob <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob>
>>> >> >> >>> %40gma
>>> >> >> >>> il.com
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> --
>>> >> >> >> *Dr Denise*
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>> >> >> >> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>>> >> >> >> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low
>>> >> >> >> vision
>>> >> >> >> 423-573-6413
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on
>>> >> >> >> PC, Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
>>> >> >> >> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>>> >> >> >> the one who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans
>>> >> >> >> are incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they
>>> >> >> >> are powerful beyond imagination.
>>> >> >> >> --Albert Einstein
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>>> >> >> >> --Walt Disney
>>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>
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>> .
>>
>>> >> >> >> com
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
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Zeeshan Khan

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