[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)

[Jim Barbour]

I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days. If I  were  going to learn  SQL today, I would go find a website that teaches it, or is this not an option in your case?

Jim



Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net> wrote:

> Hi Mike.
> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these days.  I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from Bookshare as a Daisy file, then opened the html portion.  It worked well.  I could read the code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to the max speed I could understand for the text parts.
> Tracy
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
> 
> 
>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the availability
>> of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.  I'm sighted, so if
>> I have to read print, I can do it.  But as I said, I'm a slow reader, and
>> that's bad news.  It takes forever to read something and in a competitive
>> world, you often finish last and the other guy gets the job or the perks or
>> the promotion when the company finds out you can't go as fast.  But at least
>> I can do it if I have to.  But what does the totally blind person do that is
>> trying to break into programming?  How do they keep up?  And can they get
>> the books in accessible format?  In Braille?  Braille is expensive, and not
>> everything is available in hard-copy Braille.  And, braille is on the
>> decline, or so they say.
>> 
>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible format any
>> time soon.  They may figure ... "hey, there's talking books - let them do it
>> - they know what the blind person needs".  And then perhaps for some
>> publishers they just don't care.
>> 
>> I do think the answer is Braille.  I learned in a course I took about making
>> software more efficient (or your process) you have to eliminate the link in
>> the chain that slows you down.  You can't go any faster than what is
>> limiting you.  So if your eyesight is the weakest link, you need to remove
>> the need to use vision to read.  And that means Braille.  And if Braille was
>> available, that would solve the problem of making the material available for
>> the totally blind, as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision would
>> impose for partially sighted people.
>> 
>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as the iPad
>> that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a wireless Braille
>> Display.  Then, a book that you can download to the iPad SHOULD BE (notice I
>> say SHOULD) accessible through the Braille display.  I haven't tried this
>> yet myself.  I'm a bit gun-shy spending $3000 for a Braille display to
>> connect to my iPad with the thought that I might be wrong. That's a big
>> investment.
>> 
>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.  How do we
>> get the material in accessible form so we can get the same material that our
>> sighted counterparts are reading and get it at the same time so that we can
>> learn what we need?
>> 
>> Your thoughts?
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stanzel, Susan -
>> FSA, Kansas City, MO
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>> 
>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in
>> programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification
>> examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for 39 years.
>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three years. I am
>> one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been great. I need to take
>> this exam just to keep up with everyone. New hires are required to have this
>> certification. The preparation is exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet
>> in Java Script, CSS, and of course HTML. If I were applying for a new
>> position I would not even qualify. The amount of constant study is
>> incredible. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this
>> with your eyes wide open. The amount of extra work required is growing each
>> year.
>> 
>> Susie Stanzel
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>> 
>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35 years -
>> something I understand is rather unique these days.  As a result, I'm not
>> completely aware of every technology that every IT firm is looking for.  I
>> can share what our company expects developers to know, and offer some advice
>> on what a person should do to prepare for a programming job.
>> 
>> 1. Learn web technology.
>> Our company is all about web technology.  A few years back all of our
>> systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they are
>> re-writing everything using web technology.  Some of the technologies you
>> would want to know (and this list is not exhaustive) are
>> HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/Servlets/Java Server Pages
>> (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat.  Every technology I have mentioned here is used
>> to develop web applications.  HTML/Javascript is used to develop the user
>> interface that runs in the browser on the client workstation, and
>> Java/Servlets/Java Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level.  If you
>> want to understand how web applications work from the client browser to the
>> back-end server, learning all these technologies is a must.  The downside is
>> that there is a significant investment of time.  You're looking at 6 months
>> at least, and probably a year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>> 
>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming
>> Today's systems are generally written using an object oriented approach.
>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language that is
>> architected with OO in mind.  Our shop uses Java for most programming work
>> and it does OO pretty well.  That would be a good first choice.  C++ is
>> another OO language, although our shop doesn't use that as heavily as Java.
>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs.  I'd recommend Eclipse.  It's free,
>> just like Java.  That's one of the big reasons our company went with Java
>> and Eclipse.  They are mature technologies and they're free.  You can
>> download them.  You'll also need a good book on Java that discusses many of
>> the technologies I've mentioned above.  The Deitel and Deitel series on Java
>> How to Program is a good starting book.  It gives you a fairly thorough
>> treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data
>> Structures.  It doesn't deal with HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can get
>> that elsewhere.
>> 
>> 3. Experience
>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure if you
>> could do that at our company.  Perhaps other companies are different.  Our
>> company REQUIRES at least a degree in something, and I'm guessing a CS
>> degree for candidates who want to get a job in IT as programmers.  I would
>> suggest calling HR departments to find out a consensus.  If you don't have a
>> CS degree, then experience is your next best bet.  And I don't mean getting
>> the Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a
>> programmer".  I mean, write real applications for your non-profits that give
>> you experience in real-world problems so that when you get to the company
>> you REALLY want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>> 
>> 4. Expect the technology to change
>> And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology will
>> change on you within 2-5 years.  Even after you learn all of this, expect
>> new technologies to come along which will require you to learn some or all
>> of these all over again, or learn updates to these technologies.  If, due to
>> vision issues, you're not the fastest guy on the block, expect to have to
>> learn the new technologies on your own time, at home.  So instead of working
>> a 40 hour week, you may be looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even with
>> everyone else.  I'm a slow reader.  I only read about 130 words per minute
>> print, whereas a normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.  So in a
>> way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing catch-up and
>> having to spend time at home learning new stuff.  I like the challenges and
>> the problems I solve, but it would be so much easier if I could read as fast
>> as everyone else and take less time.  However, that's just not the hand I
>> was dealt.
>> 
>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a novel
>> than it already is, I'll stop there.  Does that help?
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>> 
>> @Jim
>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
>> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
>> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will take
>> me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that actually worth it
>> in that situation?
>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids storybooks
>> Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you cannot make a
>> living out of unless you have the next angry birds or something like that.
>> 
>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other one
>> about working in a large company help desk environment, would be difficult
>> to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most companies will
>> probably not hire.
>> 
>> What specific steps do you think I can take  on how to get started on
>> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford online
>> course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to programming.
>> 
>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
>> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to start. In
>> your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes my ultimate goal
>> is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just to get my foot in the
>> door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem goes on.
>> 
>> @John
>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you in.
>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years until I
>> can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into a field.
>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to land an
>> entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non profits are a
>> start, what other specific steps I can take to start learning and / or
>> gaining epxerience?
>> 
>> Thanks again everyone!
>> Zeeshan
>> 
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>> 
>>> hi,
>>> 
>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and
>>> he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting
>>> your and the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in
>> something else.
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>> 
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>> relevant
>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>>>> and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person
>>>> working competitively in the field
>>>> 
>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>>> messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how
>>>> people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>>>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a project
>>>> gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>> 
>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and
>>>> bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss and
>> understand.
>>>> 
>>>> Gary
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>> 
>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>> 
>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore, take
>>>> your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This will
>>>> be difficult without some formal training, so look for open source
>>>> projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>> 
>>>> Jim
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes,
>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn
>>>>> a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than
>>>>> you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all
>>>>> the fun out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>> bill
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>> > Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>> > science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>>>> > other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>>>> > architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>> > computer programming job.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>>>> > to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-
>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>> > oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>>>> > android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
>>>>> > they'll need to use statement based configuration language to
>>>>> > layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>>>> > is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned
>>>>> > about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>>>> > write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put
>>>>> > it in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to
>>>>> > think about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay
>>>>> > for
>> it.
>>>>> > It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>> > people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>>> > code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>>>> > are found.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>> > experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>> > expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>> > like computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies
>>>>> > that you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding
>>>>> > up app