[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
Tracy Carcione
carcione at access.net
Thu Feb 21 15:40:30 UTC 2013
Hi Jim.
I don't know if I could have learned it from a website. I found the book
that was recommended to me, so I didn't look elsewhere. Between the book
and working with a co-worker who had written some SQL code in our system, I
got what I needed.
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days. If I
>were going to learn SQL today, I would go find a website that teaches it,
>or is this not an option in your case?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mike.
>> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these days.
>> I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
>> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from Bookshare as
>> a Daisy file, then opened the html portion. It worked well. I could
>> read the code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to the max
>> speed I could understand for the text parts.
>> Tracy
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>
>>
>>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>> availability
>>> of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format. I'm sighted, so
>>> if
>>> I have to read print, I can do it. But as I said, I'm a slow reader,
>>> and
>>> that's bad news. It takes forever to read something and in a
>>> competitive
>>> world, you often finish last and the other guy gets the job or the perks
>>> or
>>> the promotion when the company finds out you can't go as fast. But at
>>> least
>>> I can do it if I have to. But what does the totally blind person do
>>> that is
>>> trying to break into programming? How do they keep up? And can they
>>> get
>>> the books in accessible format? In Braille? Braille is expensive, and
>>> not
>>> everything is available in hard-copy Braille. And, braille is on the
>>> decline, or so they say.
>>>
>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible format any
>>> time soon. They may figure ... "hey, there's talking books - let them
>>> do it
>>> - they know what the blind person needs". And then perhaps for some
>>> publishers they just don't care.
>>>
>>> I do think the answer is Braille. I learned in a course I took about
>>> making
>>> software more efficient (or your process) you have to eliminate the link
>>> in
>>> the chain that slows you down. You can't go any faster than what is
>>> limiting you. So if your eyesight is the weakest link, you need to
>>> remove
>>> the need to use vision to read. And that means Braille. And if Braille
>>> was
>>> available, that would solve the problem of making the material available
>>> for
>>> the totally blind, as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision
>>> would
>>> impose for partially sighted people.
>>>
>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as the
>>> iPad
>>> that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a wireless Braille
>>> Display. Then, a book that you can download to the iPad SHOULD BE
>>> (notice I
>>> say SHOULD) accessible through the Braille display. I haven't tried
>>> this
>>> yet myself. I'm a bit gun-shy spending $3000 for a Braille display to
>>> connect to my iPad with the thought that I might be wrong. That's a big
>>> investment.
>>>
>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge. How
>>> do we
>>> get the material in accessible form so we can get the same material that
>>> our
>>> sighted counterparts are reading and get it at the same time so that we
>>> can
>>> learn what we need?
>>>
>>> Your thoughts?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>> Susan -
>>> FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in
>>> programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification
>>> examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for 39
>>> years.
>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three years.
>>> I am
>>> one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been great. I need to
>>> take
>>> this exam just to keep up with everyone. New hires are required to have
>>> this
>>> certification. The preparation is exhausting. I now am getting my feet
>>> wet
>>> in Java Script, CSS, and of course HTML. If I were applying for a new
>>> position I would not even qualify. The amount of constant study is
>>> incredible. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to go into
>>> this
>>> with your eyes wide open. The amount of extra work required is growing
>>> each
>>> year.
>>>
>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35
>>> years -
>>> something I understand is rather unique these days. As a result, I'm
>>> not
>>> completely aware of every technology that every IT firm is looking for.
>>> I
>>> can share what our company expects developers to know, and offer some
>>> advice
>>> on what a person should do to prepare for a programming job.
>>>
>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>> Our company is all about web technology. A few years back all of our
>>> systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they are
>>> re-writing everything using web technology. Some of the technologies
>>> you
>>> would want to know (and this list is not exhaustive) are
>>> HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/Servlets/Java Server Pages
>>> (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat. Every technology I have mentioned here is
>>> used
>>> to develop web applications. HTML/Javascript is used to develop the
>>> user
>>> interface that runs in the browser on the client workstation, and
>>> Java/Servlets/Java Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level. If
>>> you
>>> want to understand how web applications work from the client browser to
>>> the
>>> back-end server, learning all these technologies is a must. The
>>> downside is
>>> that there is a significant investment of time. You're looking at 6
>>> months
>>> at least, and probably a year, depending on how in-depth you want to
>>> get.
>>>
>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming
>>> Today's systems are generally written using an object oriented approach.
>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language that
>>> is
>>> architected with OO in mind. Our shop uses Java for most programming
>>> work
>>> and it does OO pretty well. That would be a good first choice. C++ is
>>> another OO language, although our shop doesn't use that as heavily as
>>> Java.
>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs. I'd recommend Eclipse. It's
>>> free,
>>> just like Java. That's one of the big reasons our company went with
>>> Java
>>> and Eclipse. They are mature technologies and they're free. You can
>>> download them. You'll also need a good book on Java that discusses many
>>> of
>>> the technologies I've mentioned above. The Deitel and Deitel series on
>>> Java
>>> How to Program is a good starting book. It gives you a fairly thorough
>>> treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data
>>> Structures. It doesn't deal with HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can get
>>> that elsewhere.
>>>
>>> 3. Experience
>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure if
>>> you
>>> could do that at our company. Perhaps other companies are different.
>>> Our
>>> company REQUIRES at least a degree in something, and I'm guessing a CS
>>> degree for candidates who want to get a job in IT as programmers. I
>>> would
>>> suggest calling HR departments to find out a consensus. If you don't
>>> have a
>>> CS degree, then experience is your next best bet. And I don't mean
>>> getting
>>> the Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a
>>> programmer". I mean, write real applications for your non-profits that
>>> give
>>> you experience in real-world problems so that when you get to the
>>> company
>>> you REALLY want to work for, you have real-world experience to show
>>> them.
>>>
>>> 4. Expect the technology to change
>>> And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology will
>>> change on you within 2-5 years. Even after you learn all of this,
>>> expect
>>> new technologies to come along which will require you to learn some or
>>> all
>>> of these all over again, or learn updates to these technologies. If,
>>> due to
>>> vision issues, you're not the fastest guy on the block, expect to have
>>> to
>>> learn the new technologies on your own time, at home. So instead of
>>> working
>>> a 40 hour week, you may be looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even
>>> with
>>> everyone else. I'm a slow reader. I only read about 130 words per
>>> minute
>>> print, whereas a normally sighted person reads about 250 words per
>>> minute.
>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long. So
>>> in a
>>> way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing catch-up and
>>> having to spend time at home learning new stuff. I like the challenges
>>> and
>>> the problems I solve, but it would be so much easier if I could read as
>>> fast
>>> as everyone else and take less time. However, that's just not the hand
>>> I
>>> was dealt.
>>>
>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a
>>> novel
>>> than it already is, I'll stop there. Does that help?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> @Jim
>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
>>> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
>>> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will
>>> take
>>> me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that actually worth
>>> it
>>> in that situation?
>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>> storybooks
>>> Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you cannot make a
>>> living out of unless you have the next angry birds or something like
>>> that.
>>>
>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other
>>> one
>>> about working in a large company help desk environment, would be
>>> difficult
>>> to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most companies will
>>> probably not hire.
>>>
>>> What specific steps do you think I can take on how to get started on
>>> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford
>>> online
>>> course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to
>>> programming.
>>>
>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
>>> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to start.
>>> In
>>> your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes my ultimate
>>> goal
>>> is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just to get my foot in
>>> the
>>> door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem goes on.
>>>
>>> @John
>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you
>>> in.
>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years
>>> until I
>>> can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into a
>>> field.
>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to land
>>> an
>>> entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non profits are a
>>> start, what other specific steps I can take to start learning and / or
>>> gaining epxerience?
>>>
>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>> Zeeshan
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi,
>>>>
>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and
>>>> he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting
>>>> your and the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in
>>> something else.
>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>> relevant
>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>>>>> and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person
>>>>> working competitively in the field
>>>>>
>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>>>> messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how
>>>>> people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>>>>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a project
>>>>> gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>
>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and
>>>>> bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss and
>>> understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>
>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming. Therefore, take
>>>>> your enjoyment of programming and build some experience. This will
>>>>> be difficult without some formal training, so look for open source
>>>>> projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email. Yes,
>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far. You'll learn
>>>>>> a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than
>>>>>> you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture. You sap all
>>>>>> the fun out of computers. Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>> > science in order to program. I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>>>>> > other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>>>>> > architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>> > computer programming job.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>>>>> > to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-
>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>> > oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>>>>> > android will take more time for a blind person. This is because
>>>>>> > they'll need to use statement based configuration language to
>>>>>> > layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>>>>> > is not why people go for CS degrees. There's a lot to be learned
>>>>>> > about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>>>>> > write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types,
>>>>>> > etc.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put
>>>>>> > it in the app store and not market it. It's very important to
>>>>>> > think about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay
>>>>>> > for
>>> it.
>>>>>> > It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>> > people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>>>> > code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>>>>> > are found.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>> > experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>>> > expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>>> > like computers and want to be a computer programmer." It implies
>>>>>> > that you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding
>>>>>> > up app
>
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