[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)

Mike Jolls majolls at cox.net
Thu Feb 21 15:23:48 UTC 2013 

So tell me about bookshare.  I'm not participating in that.


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:04 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)

Hi Mike.
Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these days.  I
have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from Bookshare as a
Daisy file, then opened the html portion.  It worked well.  I could read the
code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to the max speed I
could understand for the text parts.
Tracy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs


> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the availability
> of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.  I'm sighted, so 
> if
> I have to read print, I can do it.  But as I said, I'm a slow reader, and
> that's bad news.  It takes forever to read something and in a competitive
> world, you often finish last and the other guy gets the job or the perks 
> or
> the promotion when the company finds out you can't go as fast.  But at 
> least
> I can do it if I have to.  But what does the totally blind person do that 
> is
> trying to break into programming?  How do they keep up?  And can they get
> the books in accessible format?  In Braille?  Braille is expensive, and 
> not
> everything is available in hard-copy Braille.  And, braille is on the
> decline, or so they say.
>
> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible format any
> time soon.  They may figure ... "hey, there's talking books - let them do 
> it
> - they know what the blind person needs".  And then perhaps for some
> publishers they just don't care.
>
> I do think the answer is Braille.  I learned in a course I took about 
> making
> software more efficient (or your process) you have to eliminate the link 
> in
> the chain that slows you down.  You can't go any faster than what is
> limiting you.  So if your eyesight is the weakest link, you need to remove
> the need to use vision to read.  And that means Braille.  And if Braille 
> was
> available, that would solve the problem of making the material available 
> for
> the totally blind, as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision 
> would
> impose for partially sighted people.
>
> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as the 
> iPad
> that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a wireless Braille
> Display.  Then, a book that you can download to the iPad SHOULD BE (notice

> I
> say SHOULD) accessible through the Braille display.  I haven't tried this
> yet myself.  I'm a bit gun-shy spending $3000 for a Braille display to
> connect to my iPad with the thought that I might be wrong. That's a big
> investment.
>
> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.  How do 
> we
> get the material in accessible form so we can get the same material that 
> our
> sighted counterparts are reading and get it at the same time so that we 
> can
> learn what we need?
>
> Your thoughts?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stanzel, 
> Susan -
> FSA, Kansas City, MO
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>
> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in
> programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification
> examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for 39 
> years.
> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three years. I 
> am
> one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been great. I need to 
> take
> this exam just to keep up with everyone. New hires are required to have 
> this
> certification. The preparation is exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet
> in Java Script, CSS, and of course HTML. If I were applying for a new
> position I would not even qualify. The amount of constant study is
> incredible. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this
> with your eyes wide open. The amount of extra work required is growing 
> each
> year.
>
> Susie Stanzel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>
> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35 years -
> something I understand is rather unique these days.  As a result, I'm not
> completely aware of every technology that every IT firm is looking for.  I
> can share what our company expects developers to know, and offer some 
> advice
> on what a person should do to prepare for a programming job.
>
> 1. Learn web technology.
> Our company is all about web technology.  A few years back all of our
> systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they are
> re-writing everything using web technology.  Some of the technologies you
> would want to know (and this list is not exhaustive) are
> HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/Servlets/Java Server Pages
> (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat.  Every technology I have mentioned here is used
> to develop web applications.  HTML/Javascript is used to develop the user
> interface that runs in the browser on the client workstation, and
> Java/Servlets/Java Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level.  If you
> want to understand how web applications work from the client browser to 
> the
> back-end server, learning all these technologies is a must.  The downside 
> is
> that there is a significant investment of time.  You're looking at 6 
> months
> at least, and probably a year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>
> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming
> Today's systems are generally written using an object oriented approach.
> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language that is
> architected with OO in mind.  Our shop uses Java for most programming work
> and it does OO pretty well.  That would be a good first choice.  C++ is
> another OO language, although our shop doesn't use that as heavily as 
> Java.
> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
> load/save/edit/compile Java programs.  I'd recommend Eclipse.  It's free,
> just like Java.  That's one of the big reasons our company went with Java
> and Eclipse.  They are mature technologies and they're free.  You can
> download them.  You'll also need a good book on Java that discusses many 
> of
> the technologies I've mentioned above.  The Deitel and Deitel series on 
> Java
> How to Program is a good starting book.  It gives you a fairly thorough
> treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data
> Structures.  It doesn't deal with HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can get
> that elsewhere.
>
> 3. Experience
> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure if you
> could do that at our company.  Perhaps other companies are different.  Our
> company REQUIRES at least a degree in something, and I'm guessing a CS
> degree for candidates who want to get a job in IT as programmers.  I would
> suggest calling HR departments to find out a consensus.  If you don't have

> a
> CS degree, then experience is your next best bet.  And I don't mean 
> getting
> the Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a
> programmer".  I mean, write real applications for your non-profits that 
> give
> you experience in real-world problems so that when you get to the company
> you REALLY want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>
> 4. Expect the technology to change
> And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology will
> change on you within 2-5 years.  Even after you learn all of this, expect
> new technologies to come along which will require you to learn some or all
> of these all over again, or learn updates to these technologies.  If, due 
> to
> vision issues, you're not the fastest guy on the block, expect to have to
> learn the new technologies on your own time, at home.  So instead of 
> working
> a 40 hour week, you may be looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even 
> with
> everyone else.  I'm a slow reader.  I only read about 130 words per minute
> print, whereas a normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.  So in

> a
> way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing catch-up and
> having to spend time at home learning new stuff.  I like the challenges 
> and
> the problems I solve, but it would be so much easier if I could read as 
> fast
> as everyone else and take less time.  However, that's just not the hand I
> was dealt.
>
> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a novel
> than it already is, I'll stop there.  Does that help?
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>
> @Jim
> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will 
> take
> me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that actually worth 
> it
> in that situation?
> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids 
> storybooks
> Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you cannot make a
> living out of unless you have the next angry birds or something like that.
>
> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other one
> about working in a large company help desk environment, would be difficult
> to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most companies will
> probably not hire.
>
> What specific steps do you think I can take  on how to get started on
> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford 
> online
> course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to programming.
>
> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to start. 
> In
> your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes my ultimate 
> goal
> is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just to get my foot in the
> door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem goes on.
>
> @John
> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you in.
> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years until 
> I
> can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into a field.
> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to land 
> an
> entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non profits are a
> start, what other specific steps I can take to start learning and / or
> gaining epxerience?
>
> Thanks again everyone!
> Zeeshan
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz 
> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and
>> he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting
>> your and the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in
> something else.
>> Bryan Schulz
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>
>>
>>  Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>> relevant
>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>>> and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person
>>> working competitively in the field
>>>
>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>> messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how
>>> people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a project
>>> gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>
>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and
>>> bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss and
> understand.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>
>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore, take
>>> your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This will
>>> be difficult without some formal training, so look for open source
>>> projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>
>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes,
>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn
>>>> a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than
>>>> you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all
>>>> the fun out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>> bill
>>>>
>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>> > Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>> >
>>>> > It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>> > science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>>> > other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>>> > architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>> >
>>>> > However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>> > computer programming job.
>>>> >
>>>> > Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>>> > to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-
>>>> making-big-m>
>>>> > oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>>> >
>>>> > It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>>> > android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
>>>> > they'll need to use statement based configuration language to
>>>> > layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>>> > is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned
>>>> > about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>>> > write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put
>>>> > it in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to
>>>> > think about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay
>>>> > for
> it.
>>>> > It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>> > people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>> > code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>>> > are found.
>>>> >
>>>> > None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>> > experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>> > expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>> >
>>>> > Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>> > like computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies
>>>> > that you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding
>>>> > up applications to run on other people's computers.  You're not
>>>> > very likely to find gainful employment that way.
>>>> >
>>>> > The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>>>> >
>>>> >   1) Doing tech work for a largish.  Handling help desk phone calls,
>>>> >      setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>>>> >   2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can contribute
>>>> >      toward an application.  So, for example, if you're a psychology
>>>> >      major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>>>> >      written.  You could partner with a programmer and come up with a
>>>> >      new app that might make money.
>>>> >
>>>> > I hope this helps,
>>>> >
>>>> > Jim
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>> >> dont agree at all.  he's all ready got a bachelors in another field.
>>>> >> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>>>> >> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>>>> >> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program
>>>> >> mobile devices.  no cost to you for distribution and no cost for
>>>>
>>> marketing...
>>>
>>>> >> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff.  just make some
>>>> >> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them
>>>> >> around on your resume to consulting companies that might give you
>>>> >> a job online without having to move.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> bill
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us> wrote:
>>>> >> > Enough said.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> > From: nfbcs
>>>> >> > [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of
>>>> >> > majolls at cox.net
>>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I couldn't agree more with your advice.  A 4 year B.S. degree
>>>> >> > is ABSOLUTELY a requirement.  There's a reason why a computer
>>>> >> > science major requires
>>>> >> > 36
>>>> >> > (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study.  It takes awhile to
>>>> >> > get your head around how tothink about the computer, how they
>>>> >> > work, etc... And, there is really that much material to learn.
>>>> >> > And not only do you learn the computer science topics in your
>>>> >> > degree program, but you also get the math and english
>>>> >> > background you'll need for solving problems and writing you'll
>>>> >> > need
> to communicate.
>>>> >> > A college education is really a must.  There is no substitute.
>>>> >> >  Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to
>>>> >> > study a lot of the topics you will be exposed to ... computer
>>>> >> > topics that is.
> You
>>>> >> > might
>>>> >> > think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but
>>>> >> > there are a LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study
>>>> >> > because you don't know what needs to be learned.  Bottom line ..
>>>> >> > there's a lot to learn.  The degree is the way to go.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ...
>>>> >> > "16 months ..
>>>> >> > get the education .. get the job".  I've seen family members
>>>> >> > try the quick fix and they got screwed - they were charged
>>>> >> > $25,000 for what amounted to a 2-year degree when they could
>>>> >> > have gotten that training for 1/4 the cost at a Junior College.
>>>> >> > And, they didn't get the same level of education.
>>>> >> > It's
>>>> >> > just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a
>>>> >> > rite of passage - as the proof that you're qualified.  That's
>>>> >> > sound advice.  Get the degree, then the business knows you're
>>>> >> > qualified.  Where I program, you can't even walk in the door
>>>> >> > unless you don't have a degree.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>> >> >> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science
>>>> >> >> program to get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to
>>>> >> >> get into one of these programs many states have to teach blind
>>>> >> >> people computer programming?
>>>> >> >> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting
>>>> >> >> a job as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of
>>>> >> >> experience.  I wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn
>>>> >> >> near it. Very few companies would even let you pay them to
>>>> >> >> work on their computers unless you have proven skills. You
>>>> >> >> wouldn't  let a self-taught doctor operate on you, would you?
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that
>>>> >> >> just require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even
>>>> >> >> require an Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of
>>>> >> >> applicants. In fact, I doubt there even are such jobs. I hate
>>>> >> >> to be so negative but I don't think you can get a job just by
>>>> >> >> teaching yourself programming even if you are really good. You
>>>> >> >> have to have some way to document that you know what you are
>>>> >> >> doing or you are going to have a very, very hard time finding
>>>> >> >> a >>
>>>> >> job.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then
>>>> >> >> you are already in the system and they can find you a position
>>>> >> >> at some place as an affirmative action hire.  Don't knock it
>>>> >> >> -- >>
>>>> >> anything to get your foot in the door works.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or 
>>>> >> >> better.
>>>> >> >> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter
>>>> >> >> but they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that
>>>> >> >> would otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough
>>>> >> >> job in one particular way -- every few years the paradigm
>>>> >> >> changes completely and you have to relearn everything you ever
>>>> >> >> knew. But the basic understanding of computers and how they
>>>> >> >> work you get at a university makes that much, much easier.
>>>> >> >> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years
>>>> >> >> favors the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people
>>>> >> >> know how to make something work but they don't necessarily
>>>> >> >> know >>
>>>> >> why.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>> >> >> > Thanks Denise for that link.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >   Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and
>>>> >> >> > getting a general understanding of what computer science is.
>>>> >> >> > Are you a programmer? if so , what kind of programming do
>>>> >> >> > you do? How did you pick it up? and how long did it take you
>>>> >> >> > to become a good programmer to get a job.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > Thanks,
>>>> >> >> > Zeeshan
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>>>> >> >> > <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> Zeeshan
>>>> >> >> >> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you
>>>> >> >> >> program if you're blind? Answered Here<
>>>> >> >> >> http://www.yourtechvision.com/**content/how-can-you-program
>>>> >> >> >> -**
>>>> if- <http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if->
>>>> >> >> >> youre-
>>>> >> >> >> blind-answered-here
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >> Denise
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan
>>>> >> >> >> <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>> Hi all,
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute
>>>> >> >> >>> beginner. As a legally blind person I want to ask you all
>>>> >> >> >>> if anyone has learned programming and computer science as
>>>> >> >> >>> a blind person. The things is I have already gotten my
>>>> >> >> >>> degree in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not
>>>> >> >> >> sure
>>>> >> >> >>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>>>> >> >> >>> computer science/  programming? What resources did you use?
>>>> >> >> >>> how long did it take
>>>> >> >> >> you
>>>> >> >> >>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to
>>>> >> >> >>> land a job? I
>>>> >> >> >> am
>>>> >> >> >>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it
>>>> >> >> >>> own't really
>>>> >> >> >> help
>>>> >> >> >>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really
>>>> >> >> >>> want to learn computer science as I am looking to make a
>>>> >> >> >>> career change, and the future
>>>> >> >> >> is
>>>> >> >> >>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>>>> >> >> >>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not
>>>> >> >> >>> sure if I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in
>>>> >> >> >>> computer science. What is the job market like , in your >>
>>>> >> >> >>> >>
>>>> >>> opinion?
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and
>>>> >> >> >>> experiences, Thanks,
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> --
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> ToiBooks
>>>> >> >> >>> www.toibooks.com
>>>> >> >> >>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com
>>>> >> >> >>> /ToiBooks>
>>>> >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http
>>>> >> >> >>> ://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>> >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> >> >> >>> account info for
>>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs:
>>>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>> deniserob
>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob>
>>>> >> >> >>> %40gma
>>>> >> >> >>> il.com
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> --
>>>> >> >> >> *Dr Denise*
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>> >> >> >> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>>>> >> >> >> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low
>>>> >> >> >> vision
>>>> >> >> >> 423-573-6413
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons
>>>> >> >> >> on PC, Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done
>>>> >> >> >> with
>>>> >> >> >> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>>>> >> >> >> the one who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans
>>>> >> >> >> are incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together
>>>> >> >> >> they are powerful beyond imagination.
>>>> >> >> >> --Albert Einstein
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>>>> >> >> >> --Walt Disney
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>>> l<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail>
>>> .
>>>
>>>> >> >> >> com
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>> olls%40cox>
>>>> >> >> .net
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ______________________________**_________________
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>>>> david.hyde%40w<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/da
>>>> vid.hyde%40w>
>>>> >> > cbvi.k12.wi.us
>>>> >> >
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>>>> wdg31415%40gma<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/wd
>>>> g31415%40gma>
>>>> >> > il.com
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
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>>>> 40barcore.c>
>>>> >> om
>>>> >>
>>>> >
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>>>> r%40barcore.com>
>>>>
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>>> t.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>> l.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Zeeshan Khan
>
> ToiBooks
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