[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
Tracy Carcione
carcione at access.net
Sat Feb 23 13:35:42 UTC 2013
Mike, thanks for sharing your story. It's very illuminating.
I'm a good braille reader. I use braille at work and at home. I read
braille books for pleasure, and I use my braille display all the time at
work.
But, if I'm just reading the computer screen, taking a quick look at a
program, or reading an email, mostly I use Jaws speech, and just look at the
braille display to check on small bits. Reading my personal email this
morning, I might only look at the braille display a few times.
So, it seems to me that a person in Mike's situation, and I think there are
a lot of them, could use mostly speech, and use vision to check the little
bits.
I find braille extremely useful, but it takes a while for an adult to get
proficient enough to make it useful for long passages. I think learning it
will pay off in the long run, but it is a long run.
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
> Tami
>
> A couple of comments.
>
> The Braille Basics you mentioned ... was that written by Jolene Boshart?
> If
> so, I have a copy of her books. She works in Nebraska at a company that
> sells adaptive technology and I think also does custom brailling jobs.
>
> I wanted to comment on your reply when You said ... "if you have stable
> and
> usable vision, don't bother with Braille, but learn other things". I
> won't
> disagree at all about learning other things. You need to do that in any
> career. But I'm going to have to disagree to a point on that comment.
> I'm
> going to reiterate ... even if you can read print and can work at the
> computer monitor, you should really stop and think about how you do things
> if your vision is significantly below the normal reading rate of 250 words
> per minute.
>
> In my own case, my vision limits me to read at 130 words per minute. So I
> read about 1/2 the rate of a normal person. Or, you could say it takes me
> twice as long to read something. I used to think ... "I'm a slow reader,
> but I can read print .. I"M OK". But I've learned over the past 35 years
> in
> my career that my vision has put my career in the toilet. Can I read
> print?
> Sure. But I can't do it as fast as a normal person. I've been told many
> times ... "We need to get you more productive". After awhile, you read
> between the lines and realize what they're really saying is .. "You're too
> slow". I've even been told .. "I can't send you to training... you
> wouldn't
> be able to keep up". And when the managers develop this sort of opinion,
> it
> costs you in promotions, salary, etc... In the end, the people at work
> are
> really saying ... "your disability is getting in the way and you're too
> slow. They can't come out and say that or else they get a lawsuit slapped
> on them. All I can say is that you have to judge your methods by the
> results they produce. I know for me, I have to be able to read print to
> survive in my environment. But I have to try and use Braille so I can try
> and compensate for my slow reading rate where possible. Otherwise, I know
> what the results will be.
>
> That is why I said you need to take a cold, hard, objective measure of
> your
> reading rate. If you find it's where mine is, you REALLY need to find
> another method that doesn't use your vision. You may be setting yourself
> up
> for failure if you continue to use a method that doesn't serve you well.
>
> I read once in a book on advanced computer science that in order to make a
> process more efficient, you had to eliminate the part in the process that
> was slowing you down. If you didn't do that, you would always be subject
> to
> the limitation that this weakest part in the process placed upon you. In
> my
> case, that limitation is my vision. No matter how hard I try, my vision
> will only allow me to go at a maximum rate. I have enough years of
> experience to know what happens when I use my vision on a daily basis. I
> don't get as much done as the next guy and I end up losing out. To really
> improve beyond the limit my vision imposes on me, I am convinced that
> totally removing my vision from the process ... if that's possible ... is
> what is necessary, and then replacing it with a different method which is
> superior.
>
> I will say, however, that Braille is not perfect. It's great for reading
> straight text. It's lousy for working with diagrams. But if you mostly
> deal with straight text, say that was 80% of your work, then it could help
> you perform at a faster rate at least in that 80%. That is, if your
> vision
> is slowing you down. And, the improvement you gain will be dependent on
> how
> efficient of a Braille reader you can become. I do know that some people
> read Braille at 200 words per minute. I haven't achieved that rate yet
> but
> I'm working toward that.
>
> The reason I write all of this is because I do NOT want the next guy to
> have
> to suffer and go through what I've experienced. If my experience can help
> somebody realize what they're up against and can motivate them to at least
> look at Braille or alternate methods that will help them compete in
> today's
> IT world which is all about getting things done yesterday, then my life
> experience has not been for nothing.
>
> So, take that cold hard look. Think about how your career has gone. If
> you're happy with your results then great. If not, maybe Braille is
> something you need to learn to help your cause.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 12:42 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>
> Mike,
>
> That's a great discussion of the ins and outs when it comes to whether to
> braille or not to braille. /smile/
>
> The only thing I can add based on my own experience is that if your vision
> loss is progressive, it's an excellent idea to learn nonvisual techniques
> as
> much as possible even while you can use vision. That way, in theory
> anyway,
> you're less likely to have to drop everything when it turns out you can't
> read any more. Or, at least, the transition is likely to be smoother.
> Unless
> you make a huge mistake like I did... But that's another story. Where is
> that dratted time machine?
>
> I also did find in the few years I had leading up to that disaster that
> learning everything I could while working butt off to advance my career
> where I could left little time to turn to braille on top of that... I did
> some of the Hadley course but wanted something else and at the time
> couldn't
> find out the information I wanted/needed... But now with all the lists
> where
> you can just ask about anything, you don't have to wait on a VR agency
> that
> thinks it's weird for a blind person to want to find out about learning
> braille while they're still working. Sigh.
>
> The text I really loved was Braille Basics, which is hard to find to
> purchase. I have some info tucked somewhere, and you can also ask around
> since a few VR agencies use it. I found it to be really great for just
> sitting down and going through because it leads the learning progress
> quite
> naturally. At least for the way I learn. Others like the Hadley course
> because of the way they learn for the reasons I wanted something else.
>
> Point being, if you have limited but stable vision and don't need braille,
> then I agree you don't need to fuss it. Your time and effort learning
> other
> things to improve your options will get you further. But I do think a hard
> look at the cost-benefit analysis there is really key, both for time spent
> learning then getting really good at using braille and for the cost of
> equipment. Ouch!
>
> Then again, that $3k you mention was $6k for less functionality not that
> long ago. Makes it seem almost cheap, doesn't it? Or not... /grin/
>
> Tami
>
> On 02/22/2013 06:05 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>> Being a partially sighted person (legally blind like you) and a
>> Braille reader myself, I'll weigh in on this. Others can comment too.
>>
>> Whether using Braille ... or a Braille display ... might be useful to
>> you really depends on how quickly and easily you can read and absorb
>> printed material. According to studies I have read, a normal reading
>> speed for a normally sighted person is about 250 words per minute.
>> The question you have to answer is "how fast do I read in
>> comparison?". If you can read print at a normally sighted person's
>> rate, and you don't have any difficulty reading the normal sized
>> print, then there's no need to entertain the idea of purchasing a
>> Braille display or using any alternate method. You can therefore
> disregard the rest of my response if you fall into this category.
>>
>> If however, due to your blindness, your reading rate is slower than a
>> normally sighted person, then an alternate method such as Braille
>> might be useful for you. So then the question is not so much ...
>> "should I purchase a Braille display?" ... but rather ... "do I read
>> at a rate close enough to the standard such that I don't need to adopt
>> any alternate method or purchase any technology to do that?". If your
>> print reading rate is significantly below the normal rate, then
>> learning Braille would allow you to read at a rate that is not
>> impacted by your vision. And if the Braille rate is faster than what
>> your vision permits, then you can see that Braille would be a faster
>> method and could give you obvious advantages. In that case, the Braille
> display might be something you'd want to consider.
>>
>> So the need to learn Braille, or getting a Braille display, really
>> depends on whether and how easily you can read print at a normal rate.
>> And, if there's any impact to you if you exclusively read print. Does
>> reading print frustrate you because you take longer to read pleasure
>> material? Does reading print impact your performance at work? Does
>> it impact your ability to get promotions or do what you want
>> professionally? If there are no negative results from continuing to
>> use your vision and reading print, then I don't see a need to learn
>> Braille or get a device such as a Braille display. If however,
>> reading print is slower and has impact to you, pursuing Braille could be
>> a
> good thing.
>>
>> Now here are some things about Braille that might be interesting to you
> ...
>>
>> 1. A Braille display is used by people that already know Braille. So
>> yes, you'd have to learn it first to be able to use and benefit from a
>> Braille display.
>> 2. Braille takes awhile to learn. It took me about 9 months as a
>> working person (studying it in my spare time) to learn it.
>> 3. There are a couple of Braille codes. To be able to use it in all
>> situations, you need to learn them both.
>> 4. Braille displays are expensive. The cost is determined by the
>> number of characters the device can render. A 40 character display
>> I'm considering is about $3000. There are 80 character models that run
> around $6000.
>>
>> I could go into my own personal experiences with print and Braille,
>> but that's not the question you asked. Your question was more about
>> .. "I read print. Should I consider a Braille display?". I hope what
>> I've said helps answer the question.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>> Khan
>> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:26 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>
>> So I am guessing a braille display only works for those who are
>> familiar with braille and not for those who haven't learned it? In my
>> case, I am legally blind but I can still read screens, so would bookshare
> suffice?
>>
>> -Zeeshan
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Using the material, even if it's not specifically formatted for
>>> braille is getting easier and easier because of open source braille
>>> translation software like BRLTTY, liblouis and others. And, of
>>> course, if you can use speech well with that sort of material, that's
>>> also easy. Well, depending on how you want to define easy.
>>>
>>> For self-study at home, that means you need a braille display there
>>> to read straight off the web or for electronic books. I was fortunate
>>> to get an older, basic one I could actually afford, which has really
> helped.
>>> Although I am a bad girl and use it for pleasure reading to the
>>> neglect of using it for study. Must develop better habits! /lol/
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/21/2013 07:57 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>>
>>>> I won't argue that learning things off the web has certainly changed
>>>> the way we learn. There are those sites that teach different
>>>> subjects and they provide complete information. I suppose you just
>>>> have to look out there on the web and see if you find what you need.
>>>> If the web suffices, then great.
>>>> If not, and you really need the "whole 9 yards", you may have to get
>>>> a book, or subscribe to a service that provides the book in
>>>> electronic format. If the latter, then this opens up the question,
>>>> can you use the material as the service provides it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Cc: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>>>
>>>> I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days. If
>>>> I were going to learn SQL today, I would go find a website that
>>>> teaches it, or is this not an option in your case?
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mike.
>>>>> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these
> days.
>>>>>
>>>> I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
>>>>
>>>>> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from
>>>>> Bookshare as a
>>>>>
>>>> Daisy file, then opened the html portion. It worked well. I could
>>>> read the code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to
>>>> the max speed I could understand for the text parts.
>>>>
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>>>>> availability of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.
>>>>>> I'm sighted, so if I have to read print, I can do it. But as I
>>>>>> said, I'm a slow reader, and that's bad news. It takes forever to
>>>>>> read something and in a competitive world, you often finish last
>>>>>> and the other guy gets the job or the perks or the promotion when
>>>>>> the company finds out you can't go as fast. But at least I can do
>>>>>> it if I have to. But what does the totally blind person do that
>>>>>> is trying to break into programming? How do they keep up? And
>>>>>> can they get the books in accessible format? In Braille? Braille
>>>>>> is expensive, and not everything is available in hard-copy Braille.
>>>>>> And, braille is on the
>>>>>>
>>>>> decline, or so they say.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible
>>>>>> format any time soon. They may figure ... "hey, there's talking
>>>>>> books - let them do it
>>>>>> - they know what the blind person needs". And then perhaps for
>>>>>> some publishers they just don't care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do think the answer is Braille. I learned in a course I took
>>>>>> about making software more efficient (or your process) you have to
>>>>>> eliminate the link in the chain that slows you down. You can't go
>>>>>> any faster than what is limiting you. So if your eyesight is the
>>>>>> weakest link, you need to remove the need to use vision to read.
>>>>>> And that means Braille. And if Braille was available, that would
>>>>>> solve the problem of making the material available for the totally
>>>>>> blind, as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision would
>>>>>> impose for
>>>>>>
>>>>> partially sighted people.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as
>>>>>> the iPad that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a
>>>>>> wireless Braille Display. Then, a book that you can download to
>>>>>> the iPad SHOULD BE (notice I say SHOULD) accessible through the
>>>>>> Braille display. I haven't tried this yet myself. I'm a bit
>>>>>> gun-shy spending $3000 for a Braille display to connect to my iPad
>>>>>> with the thought that I might be wrong. That's a big investment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.
>>>>>> How do we get the material in accessible form so we can get the
>>>>>> same material that our sighted counterparts are reading and get it
>>>>>> at the same time so that we can learn what we need?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>>>>> Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been
>>>>>> in programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java
>>>>>> certification examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have
>>>>>> been there for
>>>>>> 39
>>>>>>
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three
>>>>>> years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been
>>>>>> great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with everyone. New
>>>>>> hires are required to have this certification. The preparation is
>>>>>> exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java Script, CSS, and
>>>>>> of course HTML. If I were applying for a new position I would not
>>>>>> even qualify. The amount of constant study is incredible. I don't
>>>>>> mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this with your
>>>>>> eyes wide open. The amount of extra work required is growing each
> year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35
>>>>>> years - something I understand is rather unique these days. As a
>>>>>> result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that every IT
>>>>>> firm is looking for. I can share what our company expects
>>>>>> developers to know, and offer some advice on what a person should
>>>>>> do to prepare for
>>>>>>
>>>>> a programming job.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>>>>> Our company is all about web technology. A few years back all of
>>>>>> our systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they
>>>>>> are re-writing everything using web technology. Some of the
>>>>>> technologies you would want to know (and this list is not
>>>>>> exhaustive) are HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/**Servlets/Java Server
>>>>>> Pages (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat. Every technology I have
>>>>>> mentioned here is used to develop web applications.
>>>>>> HTML/Javascript is used to develop the user interface that runs in
>>>>>> the browser on the client workstation, and Java/Servlets/Java
>>>>>> Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level. If you want to
>>>>>> understand how web applications work from the client browser to
>>>>>> the back-end server, learning all these technologies is a must.
>>>>>> The downside is that there is a significant investment of time.
>>>>>> You're looking at
>>>>>> 6 months at least, and probably a
>>>>>>
>>>>> year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming Today's systems are generally
>>>>>> written using an object oriented approach.
>>>>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language
>>>>>> that is architected with OO in mind. Our shop uses Java for most
>>>>>> programming work and it does OO pretty well. That would be a good
>>>>>> first choice. C++ is another OO language, although our shop
>>>>>> doesn't use
>>>>>>
>>>>> that as heavily as Java.
>>>>
>>>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>>>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs. I'd recommend Eclipse.
>>>>>> It's free, just like Java. That's one of the big reasons our
>>>>>> company went with Java and Eclipse. They are mature technologies
>>>>>> and they're free. You can download them. You'll also need a good
>>>>>> book on Java that discusses many of the technologies I've
>>>>>> mentioned above. The Deitel and Deitel series on Java How to
>>>>>> Program is a good starting book. It gives you a fairly thorough
>>>>>> treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC
>>>>>> (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data Structures. It doesn't deal with
>>>>>> HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can
>> get that elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Experience
>>>>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not
>>>>>> sure if you could do that at our company. Perhaps other companies
>>>>>> are different. Our company REQUIRES at least a degree in
>>>>>> something, and I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who want to
>>>>>> get a job in IT as programmers. I would suggest calling HR
>>>>>> departments to find out a consensus. If you don't have a CS
>>>>>> degree, then experience is your next best bet. And I don't mean
>>>>>> getting the Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then
>>>>>> saying "I'm a programmer". I mean, write real applications for
>>>>>> your non-profits that give you experience in real-world problems
>>>>>> so that when you get to the company you REALLY
>>>>>>
>>>>> want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. Expect the technology to change And don't forget, this is just
>>>>>> a starting point, and the technology will change on you within 2-5
>>>>>> years. Even after you learn all of this, expect new technologies
>>>>>> to come along which will require you to learn some or all of these
>>>>>> all over again, or learn updates to these technologies. If, due
>>>>>> to vision issues, you're not the fastest guy on the block, expect
>>>>>> to have to learn the new technologies on your own time, at home.
>>>>>> So instead of working a 40 hour week, you may be looking at a 60
>>>>>> hour week just to stay even with everyone else. I'm a slow
>>>>>> reader. I only read about 130 words per minute print, whereas a
>>>>>>
>>>>> normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.
>>>>>> So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always
>>>>>> playing catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new
>>>>>> stuff. I like the challenges and the problems I solve, but it
>>>>>> would be so much easier if I could read as fast as everyone else
>>>>>> and take less
>> time.
>>>>>> However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of
>>>>>> a novel than it already is, I'll stop there. Does that help?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>>>>> Khan
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @Jim
>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to
>>>>>> teach semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question
>>>>>> is, I am currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS
>>>>>> in CS, it will take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time.
>>>>>> Is that actually worth it in that situation?
>>>>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>>>>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something
>>>>>> you cannot make a living out of unless you have the next angry
>>>>>> birds or
>>>>>>
>>>>> something like that.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the
>>>>>> other one about working in a large company help desk environment,
>>>>>> would be difficult to secure as I have no tech support experience,
>>>>>> so most companies will probably not hire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What specific steps do you think I can take on how to get started
>>>>>> on learning programming. I am currently goign through the free
>>>>>> stanford online course called programming methodology, a very
>>>>>> basic intro to
>>>>>>
>>>>> programming.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open
>>>>>> Source projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good
>>>>>> way to start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a
>>>>>> BS and yes my ultimate goal is to land a job as an entry level
>>>>>> programmer, just to get my foot in the door and of course, I will
>>>>>> keep learning as tiem
>>>>>>
>>>>> goes on.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> @John
>>>>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get
>>>>>> you in.
>>>>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4
>>>>>> years until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too long
>>>>>> to get into
>>>>>>
>>>>> a field.
>>>>
>>>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to
>>>>>> land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non
>>>>>> profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to start
>>>>>> learning and / or gaining epxerience?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>
>>>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager
>>>>>>> and he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are
>>>>>>> wasting your and the company's time even applying if your b.s
>>>>>>> degree is in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be
>>>>>>>> true and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take
>>>>>>>> as a person working competitively in the field
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret
>>>>>>>> your messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This
>>>>>>>> is how people get to be programmers. This is why things may not
>>>>>>>> be accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a
>>>>>>>> project gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>>>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience
>>>>>>>> and bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> understand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org
>>>>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming. Therefore,
>>>>>>>> take your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.
>>>>>>>> This will be difficult without some formal training, so look for
>>>>>>>> open source projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a
>>>>>>>> lot
>> about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.
>>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far. You'll
>>>>>>>>> learn a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your
>>>>>>>>> own than you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.
>>>>>>>>> You sap all the fun out of computers. Boredom is the kiss of
> death.
>>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>>>>>> science in order to program. I didn't finish mine, and know
>>>>>>>>>> many other people who are coders, designers, product managers,
>>>>>>>>>> and even architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative
>>>>>>>>>> way to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a
>>>>>>>>>> flavor
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/****175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>> *<http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.**cultofmac.com/175065/inside-**
>>>>>>>>> the-app-econom<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-e
>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>> onom>
>>>>>>>>> y-
>>>>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/****>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> and android will take more time for a blind person. This is
>>>>>>>>>> because they'll need to use statement based configuration
>>>>>>>>>> language to layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use
>>>>>>>>>> GUI
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> layout tools.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming
>>>>>>>>>> language is not why people go for CS degrees. There's a lot
>>>>>>>>>> to be learned about how to do proper user experience designs,
>>>>>>>>>> how to design and write code that is easier to debug and free
>>>>>>>>>> of common
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bug types, etc.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and
>>>>>>>>>> put it in the app store and not market it. It's very
>>>>>>>>>> important to think about who you want to download your app and
>>>>>>>>>> what they'll pay for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out
>>>>>>>>>> your code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if
>>>>>>>>>> any bugs are found.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and
>>>>>>>>>> reasonable expectations about how you'll make money at this
> venture.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>>>>>>> like computers and want to be a computer programmer." It
>>>>>>>>>> implies that you can simply do a bit of self study and then
>>>>>>>>>> start coding up app
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
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