[nfbcs] bs is bs

Tami Jarvis tami at poodlemutt.com
Thu Feb 21 21:25:20 UTC 2013 

Aaron,

All of that is totally awesome!

I appreciate your discussion of python specifically, since that's one 
I'm leaning towards learning once I get a few other skills back up to 
snuff. I've only started to look into it, so it's good to hear from 
someone with more familiarity!

I'd forgotten about the bit where I'm forever studying college catalogs, 
then finding ways to meet the course goals without all the expense and 
bother of taking the class. Usually, I do start with some project in 
mind to begin, so I'm motivated to study fast and learn well so when I 
apply it to said project I don't come off looking like a moron.

I usually also will devise some project or other to practice bits and 
pieces on, even if it's just something pointless. If I'm pondering some 
complicated bit of database design and remember I need milk and bananas 
from the grocery store, guess what? A database happens with some slick 
fancy feature I want to experiment with before anybody can see my 
mistakes... The milk and bananas remain in the grocery store. Oh, well. 
I took whatever it was I learned from that one, applied it to my real 
project of the time, which impressed the snot out of several people that 
I could just whip up something so clever off the top of my head (ha!), 
which led to... Whatever works, man. Whatever works. /lol/

Tami

On 02/20/2013 06:55 PM, Aaron Cannon wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I am one of those who believe that a CS degree can be over-rated.  If
> you have the drive to truly learn the fundamentals of computer
> science, the hard boring stuff as well as the hard fun stuff, and you
> already have a degree (no matter what it's in), then I really don't
> believe that it's worth spending all the time and money to get a
> second degree in CS.
>
> So, that's #1, read a lot, and do the exercises in the text.  If you
> get stuck, try Google.  If Google fails, try IRC, Stackoverflow, or
> other forums related to the particular language or area you're
> struggling with.  If you're not sure what subjects to study, check the
> course descriptions in the CS catalogs from good universities, and see
> what their curriculum looks like.
>
> Second, pick a (preferably object oriented) language and learn it.  I
> would recommend Python as a good first language, but PHP, C#,
> Objective C, or JAVA would not be terrible choices either.  I'd wait
> to learn JavaScript, as it is a good functional programming language
> masquerading as an object oriented language.  I would wait to learn C,
> as it's not object oriented (though it was my first real language,
> hence I do have a certain fondness for it).  I would also avoid Visual
> Basic altogether, as many developers consider it a toy, or at least a
> less capable language.  If you have a compelling reason to do so, I
> suppose that you could also learn C++, though it is quite a bit more
> complex than many languages.
>
> Third, once you've learned your first language, go back and really
> learn it.  What I mean by that is not only should you know the syntax,
> but also how code is formatted.  How are functions and methods
> documented?  What are the common patterns and antipatterns used in the
> language?  Do you know what good code looks like?  More important, do
> you know what bad code looks like?  Do you have ideas on how to fix
> the bad code you find to make it better?  The best way to learn these
> things IMHO is by reading lots of source code not written by you, and
> trying to figure it out, and by contributing to open source projects.
> When you contribute patches, be sure to ask for feedback.
>
> Working on projects on your own is fine, and important for building a
> resume, but in most cases you will be doing so in isolation, and so
> will never know if the code you are writing is good or not.  (Code
> that works often has little to do with whether or not it is good.)
>
> Fourth, learn regular expressions.  There are few languages that don't
> support these, and they are very often useful.  However, just as
> important as learning regular expressions is learning when not to use
> them.
>
> Fifth, learn a good functional language.  I hear lisp-based languages
> are good, though in the interest of full disclosure, I have not
> learned any of these.  I learned JavaScript, but I'm not sure that
> that counts.
>
> Sixth, learn another language.
>
> Seventh, keep learning, and contributing.
>
> 8. Specialize, but don't stop learning things outside your area of expertise.
>
> 9. learn the common libraries/frameworks in your preferred languages.
> For example, if you know PHP well, learn Symfony2.
>
> 10. Start (if you haven't already) looking for the job you really want.
>
> I currently work for a large (400+ employees) software development
> shop specializing mostly in web applications, and I've been asked to
> review a couple code challenges for perspective employees.  Basically
> what we are looking for in a candidate is what they've done in the
> past that's relevant to the type of programming we're hiring them to
> do, and whether their code not only works, but also follows best
> practices.
>
> When I evaluate a piece of code, I'm generally looking for whether or
> not the candidate knows the language they're writing in (are they
> reimplementing functionality that the language already offers, for
> example), do they understand OO, does their code demonstrate a good
> understanding of the separation of concerns principle, is their code
> dry, ETC.  I believe most of the people we hire have some amount of
> secondary education, but the number of those who have CS degrees is
> much lower than you might guess.
>
> Anyway, these are just my thoughts, typed up in a hurry, so I almost
> certainly missed some things.  But to summarize, learn all you can,
> use the things you learn to contribute to open source projects, build
> your resume by taking small jobs and volunteering, get the job you
> want.  What you want to do will be hard, but is entirely doable,
> without going back to college.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Aaron
>
> On 2/20/13, Zeeshan Khan <zeek786 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> @Jim
>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
>> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
>> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will take
>> me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that actually worth it
>> in that situation?
>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you cannot
>> make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or something like
>> that.
>>
>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other one
>> about working in a large company help desk environment, would be difficult
>> to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most companies will
>> probably not hire.
>>
>> What specific steps do you think I can take  on how to get started on
>> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford online
>> course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to programming.
>>
>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
>> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to start. In
>> your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes my ultimate
>> goal is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just to get my foot in
>> the door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem goes on.
>>
>> @John
>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you in.
>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years until I
>> can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into a field.
>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to land an
>> entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non profits are a
>> start, what other specific steps I can take to start learning and / or
>> gaining epxerience?
>>
>> Thanks again everyone!
>> Zeeshan
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and he
>>> said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting your
>>> and
>>> the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in something else.
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>>
>>>   Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is relevant
>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true and
>>>> then
>>>> be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person working
>>>> competitively in the field
>>>>
>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>>> messages
>>>> to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how people get to be
>>>> programmers. This is why things may not be accessible. Here is why
>>>> people
>>>> code as they do. Here is how a project gets started and how folks are
>>>> rewarded.
>>>>
>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I don't
>>>> understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and bringing
>>>> the
>>>> experience we need if we're to really discuss and understand.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>
>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore, take
>>>> your
>>>> enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This will be
>>>> difficult
>>>> without some formal training, so look for open source projects,
>>>> non-profits,
>>>> or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes, all
>>>>> you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn a
>>>>> million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than you'll
>>>>> ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all the fun
>>>>> out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>> bill
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>> science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>>>>> other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>>>>> architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>>>>> to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-making-big-m>
>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>>>>> android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
>>>>>> they'll need to use statement based configuration language to layout
>>>>>> their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>>>>> is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned
>>>>>> about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>>>>> write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put it
>>>>>> in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to think
>>>>>> about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay for it.
>>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>>>> code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>>>>> are found.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>>> expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I like
>>>>>> computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies that
>>>>>> you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding up
>>>>>> applications to run on other people's computers.  You're not very
>>>>>> likely to find gainful employment that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    1) Doing tech work for a largish.  Handling help desk phone calls,
>>>>>>       setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>>>>>>    2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can contribute
>>>>>>       toward an application.  So, for example, if you're a psychology
>>>>>>       major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>>>>>>       written.  You could partner with a programmer and come up with a
>>>>>>       new app that might make money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope this helps,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>>>> dont agree at all.  he's all ready got a bachelors in another field.
>>>>>>> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>>>>>>> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>>>>>>> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program
>>>>>>> mobile devices.  no cost to you for distribution and no cost for
>>>>>
>>>> marketing...
>>>>
>>>>>>> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff.  just make some
>>>>>>> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them around
>>>>>>> on your resume to consulting companies that might give you a job
>>>>>>> online without having to move.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Enough said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>> On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> majolls at cox.net
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I couldn't agree more with your advice.  A 4 year B.S. degree is
>>>>>>>> ABSOLUTELY a requirement.  There's a reason why a computer
>>>>>>>> science major requires
>>>>>>>> 36
>>>>>>>> (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study.  It takes awhile to get
>>>>>>>> your head around how tothink about the computer, how they work,
>>>>>>>> etc... And, there is really that much material to learn.  And not
>>>>>>>> only do you learn the computer science topics in your degree
>>>>>>>> program, but you also get the math and english background you'll
>>>>>>>> need for solving problems and writing you'll need to communicate.
>>>>>>>> A college education is really a must.  There is no substitute.
>>>>>>>>   Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to
>>>>>>>> study a lot of
>>>>>>>> the topics you will be exposed to ... computer topics that is.
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but
>>>>>>>> there are a LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study
>>>>>>>> because you don't know what needs to be learned.  Bottom line ..
>>>>>>>> there's a lot to learn.  The degree is the way to go.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ...
>>>>>>>> "16 months ..
>>>>>>>> get the education .. get the job".  I've seen family members try
>>>>>>>> the quick fix and they got screwed - they were charged $25,000
>>>>>>>> for what amounted to a 2-year degree when they could have gotten
>>>>>>>> that training for 1/4 the cost at a Junior College.  And, they
>>>>>>>> didn't get the same level of education.
>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>> just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a
>>>>>>>> rite of passage - as the proof that you're qualified.  That's
>>>>>>>> sound advice.  Get the degree, then the business knows you're
>>>>>>>> qualified.  Where I program, you can't even walk in the door
>>>>>>>> unless you don't have a degree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science
>>>>>>>>> program to get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to
>>>>>>>>> get into one of these programs many states have to teach blind
>>>>>>>>> people computer programming?
>>>>>>>>> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting a
>>>>>>>>> job as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of
>>>>>>>>> experience.  I wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn near
>>>>>>>>> it. Very few companies would even let you pay them to work on
>>>>>>>>> their computers unless you have proven skills. You wouldn't  let
>>>>>>>>> a self-taught doctor operate on you, would you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that
>>>>>>>>> just require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even
>>>>>>>>> require an Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of
>>>>>>>>> applicants. In fact, I doubt there even are such jobs. I hate to
>>>>>>>>> be so negative but I don't think you can get a job just by
>>>>>>>>> teaching yourself programming even if you are really good. You
>>>>>>>>> have to have some way to document that you know what you are
>>>>>>>>> doing or you are going to have a very, very hard time finding a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then
>>>>>>>>> you are already in the system and they can find you a position
>>>>>>>>> at some place as an affirmative action hire.  Don't knock it --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> anything to get your foot in the door works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or
>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter but
>>>>>>>>> they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that would
>>>>>>>>> otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough job in one
>>>>>>>>> particular way -- every few years the paradigm changes
>>>>>>>>> completely and you have to relearn everything you ever knew. But
>>>>>>>>> the basic understanding of computers and how they work you get
>>>>>>>>> at a university makes that much, much easier.
>>>>>>>>> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years
>>>>>>>>> favors the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people
>>>>>>>>> know how to make something work but they don't necessarily know
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> why.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Denise for that link.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and
>>>>>>>>>> getting a general understanding of what computer science is.
>>>>>>>>>> Are you a programmer? if so , what kind of programming do you
>>>>>>>>>> do? How did you pick it up? and how long did it take you to
>>>>>>>>>> become a good programmer to get a job.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>>>>>>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you program
>>>>>>>>>>> if you're blind? Answered Here<
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yourtechvision.com/**content/how-can-you-program-**
>>>>> if- <http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if->
>>>>>>>>>>> youre-
>>>>>>>>>>> blind-answered-here
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>>> <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>> beginner. As a legally blind person I want to ask you all if
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has learned programming and computer science as a
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person. The things is I have already gotten my  degree
>>>>>>>>>>>> in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not
>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer science/  programming? What resources did you use?
>>>>>>>>>>>> how long did it take
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to
>>>>>>>>>>>> land a job? I
>>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it
>>>>>>>>>>>> own't really
>>>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>>>>>>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really
>>>>>>>>>>>> want to learn computer science as I am looking to make a
>>>>>>>>>>>> career change, and the future
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>>>>>>>>>>>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>> sure if I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer science. What is the job market like , in your >> >>
>>>>>>>> opinion?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and
>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences, Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ToiBooks
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.toibooks.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>> deniserob
>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob>
>>>>>>>>>>>> %40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> *Dr Denise*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>>> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>>>>>>>>>>> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low
>>>>>>>>>>> vision
>>>>>>>>>>> 423-573-6413
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on
>>>>>>>>>>> PC, Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
>>>>>>>>>>> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>>>>>>>>>>> the one who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans
>>>>>>>>>>> are incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they
>>>>>>>>>>> are powerful beyond imagination.
>>>>>>>>>>> --Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>>>>>>>>>>> --Walt Disney
>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**zeek786%40gmail<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> majolls%40cox<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox>
>>>>>>>>> .net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> david.hyde%40w<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40w>
>>>>>>>> cbvi.k12.wi.us
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> wdg31415%40gma<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/wdg31415%40gma>
>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> 40barcore.c<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.c>
>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>> .
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Zeeshan Khan
>>
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