[nfbcs] bs is bs
Aaron Cannon
cannona at fireantproductions.com
Mon Feb 25 19:26:55 UTC 2013
Hi John and all.
Sorry it took me a few days to reply to this. My wife recently had
our third little one, so things have been a bit busy.
Anyway, if I didn't have a good deal of respect for you based on your
other contributions to this list, I doubt I would have replied at all,
but would have instead written your message off as trolling. However,
based on your past contributions, I feel like it's much more likely
that one of us has simply misunderstood what the other person has
said. You wrote:
"Nobody on this list has suggested that it is worthwhile going back to
get a Comp Sci degree if you already have a BS is something else."
First, let me quote some things that I did say, so we're on the same page:
"I am one of those who believe that a CS degree can be over-rated. If
you have the drive to truly learn the fundamentals of computer
science, the hard boring stuff as well as the hard fun stuff, and you
already have a degree (no matter what it's in), then I really don't
believe that it's worth spending all the time and money to get a
second degree in CS.
...
What you want to do will be hard, but is entirely doable, without
going back to college."
I was simply stating my beliefs, not directly challenging any
particular person or their statements.
Second, I believe that you are mistaken, and that some on this list
have certainly suggested that it is worthwhile going back to get a
Comp Sci degree if you already have a BS in something else. For
example, majolls at cox.net wrote:
"A 4 year B.S. degree is ABSOLUTELY a requirement. There's a reason
why a computer science major requires 36 (or more) hours (10-12
classes) of study. It takes awhile to get your head around how
tothink about the computer, how they work, etc... And, there is really
that much material to learn."
Third, you wrote:
"Right. Nobody said you *have* to have a BS degree in Comp Sci to have
a good career as a programmer. It helps, of course. Not only does it
open doors but
it really does help you to know what you are doing."
I don't think it's too unreasonable to interpret this statement to
mean that a CS degree could be worthwhile, even if you already have
another degree.
In short, I'm simply not clear on how you believe I have misunderstood
what has been said.
Regardless of our differences on this issue, I do appreciate all your
past contributions to this list. I have enjoyed reading them.
Thanks.
Aaron
On 2/21/13, John G. Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> You know, if you're going to say a Comp Sci degree is over rated, it
> would be good if you actually understood what people are saying about
> it. Nobody on this list has suggested that it is worthwhile going back
> to get a Comp Sci degree if you already have a BS is something else.
>
> On 2/20/2013 8:55 PM, Aaron Cannon wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> I am one of those who believe that a CS degree can be over-rated. If
>> you have the drive to truly learn the fundamentals of computer
>> science, the hard boring stuff as well as the hard fun stuff, and you
>> already have a degree (no matter what it's in), then I really don't
>> believe that it's worth spending all the time and money to get a
>> second degree in CS.
>>
>> So, that's #1, read a lot, and do the exercises in the text. If you
>> get stuck, try Google. If Google fails, try IRC, Stackoverflow, or
>> other forums related to the particular language or area you're
>> struggling with. If you're not sure what subjects to study, check the
>> course descriptions in the CS catalogs from good universities, and see
>> what their curriculum looks like.
>>
>> Second, pick a (preferably object oriented) language and learn it. I
>> would recommend Python as a good first language, but PHP, C#,
>> Objective C, or JAVA would not be terrible choices either. I'd wait
>> to learn JavaScript, as it is a good functional programming language
>> masquerading as an object oriented language. I would wait to learn C,
>> as it's not object oriented (though it was my first real language,
>> hence I do have a certain fondness for it). I would also avoid Visual
>> Basic altogether, as many developers consider it a toy, or at least a
>> less capable language. If you have a compelling reason to do so, I
>> suppose that you could also learn C++, though it is quite a bit more
>> complex than many languages.
>>
>> Third, once you've learned your first language, go back and really
>> learn it. What I mean by that is not only should you know the syntax,
>> but also how code is formatted. How are functions and methods
>> documented? What are the common patterns and antipatterns used in the
>> language? Do you know what good code looks like? More important, do
>> you know what bad code looks like? Do you have ideas on how to fix
>> the bad code you find to make it better? The best way to learn these
>> things IMHO is by reading lots of source code not written by you, and
>> trying to figure it out, and by contributing to open source projects.
>> When you contribute patches, be sure to ask for feedback.
>>
>> Working on projects on your own is fine, and important for building a
>> resume, but in most cases you will be doing so in isolation, and so
>> will never know if the code you are writing is good or not. (Code
>> that works often has little to do with whether or not it is good.)
>>
>> Fourth, learn regular expressions. There are few languages that don't
>> support these, and they are very often useful. However, just as
>> important as learning regular expressions is learning when not to use
>> them.
>>
>> Fifth, learn a good functional language. I hear lisp-based languages
>> are good, though in the interest of full disclosure, I have not
>> learned any of these. I learned JavaScript, but I'm not sure that
>> that counts.
>>
>> Sixth, learn another language.
>>
>> Seventh, keep learning, and contributing.
>>
>> 8. Specialize, but don't stop learning things outside your area of
>> expertise.
>>
>> 9. learn the common libraries/frameworks in your preferred languages.
>> For example, if you know PHP well, learn Symfony2.
>>
>> 10. Start (if you haven't already) looking for the job you really want.
>>
>> I currently work for a large (400+ employees) software development
>> shop specializing mostly in web applications, and I've been asked to
>> review a couple code challenges for perspective employees. Basically
>> what we are looking for in a candidate is what they've done in the
>> past that's relevant to the type of programming we're hiring them to
>> do, and whether their code not only works, but also follows best
>> practices.
>>
>> When I evaluate a piece of code, I'm generally looking for whether or
>> not the candidate knows the language they're writing in (are they
>> reimplementing functionality that the language already offers, for
>> example), do they understand OO, does their code demonstrate a good
>> understanding of the separation of concerns principle, is their code
>> dry, ETC. I believe most of the people we hire have some amount of
>> secondary education, but the number of those who have CS degrees is
>> much lower than you might guess.
>>
>> Anyway, these are just my thoughts, typed up in a hurry, so I almost
>> certainly missed some things. But to summarize, learn all you can,
>> use the things you learn to contribute to open source projects, build
>> your resume by taking small jobs and volunteering, get the job you
>> want. What you want to do will be hard, but is entirely doable,
>> without going back to college.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>> On 2/20/13, Zeeshan Khan <zeek786 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> @Jim
>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
>>> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
>>> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will
>>> take
>>> me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that actually worth
>>> it
>>> in that situation?
>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you
>>> cannot
>>> make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or something
>>> like
>>> that.
>>>
>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other
>>> one
>>> about working in a large company help desk environment, would be
>>> difficult
>>> to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most companies will
>>> probably not hire.
>>>
>>> What specific steps do you think I can take on how to get started on
>>> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford
>>> online
>>> course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to
>>> programming.
>>>
>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
>>> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to start.
>>> In
>>> your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes my ultimate
>>> goal is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just to get my foot
>>> in
>>> the door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem goes on.
>>>
>>> @John
>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you
>>> in.
>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years until
>>> I
>>> can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into a
>>> field.
>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to land
>>> an
>>> entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non profits are a
>>> start, what other specific steps I can take to start learning and / or
>>> gaining epxerience?
>>>
>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>> Zeeshan
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi,
>>>>
>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and
>>>> he
>>>> said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting your
>>>> and
>>>> the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in something
>>>> else.
>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>> relevant
>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>>>>> and
>>>>> then
>>>>> be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person working
>>>>> competitively in the field
>>>>>
>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>>>> messages
>>>>> to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how people get to
>>>>> be
>>>>> programmers. This is why things may not be accessible. Here is why
>>>>> people
>>>>> code as they do. Here is how a project gets started and how folks are
>>>>> rewarded.
>>>>>
>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I don't
>>>>> understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and bringing
>>>>> the
>>>>> experience we need if we're to really discuss and understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>
>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming. Therefore, take
>>>>> your
>>>>> enjoyment of programming and build some experience. This will be
>>>>> difficult
>>>>> without some formal training, so look for open source projects,
>>>>> non-profits,
>>>>> or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email. Yes,
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> you need is to like programming and you'll go far. You'll learn a
>>>>>> million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than
>>>>>> you'll
>>>>>> ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture. You sap all the fun
>>>>>> out of computers. Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>>> science in order to program. I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>>>>>> other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>>>>>> architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>>>>>> to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-making-big-m>
>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>>>>>> android will take more time for a blind person. This is because
>>>>>>> they'll need to use statement based configuration language to layout
>>>>>>> their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>>>>>> is not why people go for CS degrees. There's a lot to be learned
>>>>>>> about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>>>>>> write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put it
>>>>>>> in the app store and not market it. It's very important to think
>>>>>>> about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay for it.
>>>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>>>>> code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>>>>>> are found.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>>>> expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I like
>>>>>>> computers and want to be a computer programmer." It implies that
>>>>>>> you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding up
>>>>>>> applications to run on other people's computers. You're not very
>>>>>>> likely to find gainful employment that way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Doing tech work for a largish. Handling help desk phone
>>>>>>> calls,
>>>>>>> setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>>>>>>> 2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can
>>>>>>> contribute
>>>>>>> toward an application. So, for example, if you're a
>>>>>>> psychology
>>>>>>> major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>>>>>>> written. You could partner with a programmer and come up with
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> new app that might make money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope this helps,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> dont agree at all. he's all ready got a bachelors in another
>>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>>>>>>>> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>>>>>>>> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program
>>>>>>>> mobile devices. no cost to you for distribution and no cost for
>>>>>>
>>>>> marketing...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff. just make some
>>>>>>>> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them around
>>>>>>>> on your resume to consulting companies that might give you a job
>>>>>>>> online without having to move.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Enough said.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> majolls at cox.net
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I couldn't agree more with your advice. A 4 year B.S. degree is
>>>>>>>>> ABSOLUTELY a requirement. There's a reason why a computer
>>>>>>>>> science major requires
>>>>>>>>> 36
>>>>>>>>> (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study. It takes awhile to get
>>>>>>>>> your head around how tothink about the computer, how they work,
>>>>>>>>> etc... And, there is really that much material to learn. And not
>>>>>>>>> only do you learn the computer science topics in your degree
>>>>>>>>> program, but you also get the math and english background you'll
>>>>>>>>> need for solving problems and writing you'll need to communicate.
>>>>>>>>> A college education is really a must. There is no substitute.
>>>>>>>>> Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to
>>>>>>>>> study a lot of
>>>>>>>>> the topics you will be exposed to ... computer topics that is.
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but
>>>>>>>>> there are a LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study
>>>>>>>>> because you don't know what needs to be learned. Bottom line ..
>>>>>>>>> there's a lot to learn. The degree is the way to go.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ...
>>>>>>>>> "16 months ..
>>>>>>>>> get the education .. get the job". I've seen family members try
>>>>>>>>> the quick fix and they got screwed - they were charged $25,000
>>>>>>>>> for what amounted to a 2-year degree when they could have gotten
>>>>>>>>> that training for 1/4 the cost at a Junior College. And, they
>>>>>>>>> didn't get the same level of education.
>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>> just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a
>>>>>>>>> rite of passage - as the proof that you're qualified. That's
>>>>>>>>> sound advice. Get the degree, then the business knows you're
>>>>>>>>> qualified. Where I program, you can't even walk in the door
>>>>>>>>> unless you don't have a degree.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science
>>>>>>>>>> program to get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to
>>>>>>>>>> get into one of these programs many states have to teach blind
>>>>>>>>>> people computer programming?
>>>>>>>>>> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting a
>>>>>>>>>> job as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> experience. I wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn near
>>>>>>>>>> it. Very few companies would even let you pay them to work on
>>>>>>>>>> their computers unless you have proven skills. You wouldn't let
>>>>>>>>>> a self-taught doctor operate on you, would you?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that
>>>>>>>>>> just require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even
>>>>>>>>>> require an Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of
>>>>>>>>>> applicants. In fact, I doubt there even are such jobs. I hate to
>>>>>>>>>> be so negative but I don't think you can get a job just by
>>>>>>>>>> teaching yourself programming even if you are really good. You
>>>>>>>>>> have to have some way to document that you know what you are
>>>>>>>>>> doing or you are going to have a very, very hard time finding a
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then
>>>>>>>>>> you are already in the system and they can find you a position
>>>>>>>>>> at some place as an affirmative action hire. Don't knock it --
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> anything to get your foot in the door works.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or
>>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter but
>>>>>>>>>> they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that would
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough job in one
>>>>>>>>>> particular way -- every few years the paradigm changes
>>>>>>>>>> completely and you have to relearn everything you ever knew. But
>>>>>>>>>> the basic understanding of computers and how they work you get
>>>>>>>>>> at a university makes that much, much easier.
>>>>>>>>>> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years
>>>>>>>>>> favors the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people
>>>>>>>>>> know how to make something work but they don't necessarily know
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> why.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Denise for that link.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and
>>>>>>>>>>> getting a general understanding of what computer science is.
>>>>>>>>>>> Are you a programmer? if so , what kind of programming do you
>>>>>>>>>>> do? How did you pick it up? and how long did it take you to
>>>>>>>>>>> become a good programmer to get a job.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>>>>>>>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you program
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you're blind? Answered Here<
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yourtechvision.com/**content/how-can-you-program-**
>>>>>> if- <http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if->
>>>>>>>>>>>> youre-
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind-answered-here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>>>> <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginner. As a legally blind person I want to ask you all if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has learned programming and computer science as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person. The things is I have already gotten my degree
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not
>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer science/ programming? What resources did you use?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how long did it take
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> land a job? I
>>>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own't really
>>>>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to learn computer science as I am looking to make a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> career change, and the future
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure if I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer science. What is the job market like , in your >> >>
>>>>>>>>> opinion?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences, Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ToiBooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.toibooks.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>> deniserob
>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> %40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Dr Denise*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>>>> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>>>>>>>>>>>> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low
>>>>>>>>>>>> vision
>>>>>>>>>>>> 423-573-6413
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on
>>>>>>>>>>>> PC, Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
>>>>>>>>>>>> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>> the one who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans
>>>>>>>>>>>> are incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they
>>>>>>>>>>>> are powerful beyond imagination.
>>>>>>>>>>>> --Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>>>>>>>>>>>> --Walt Disney
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**zeek786%40gmail<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>> majolls%40cox<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox>
>>>>>>>>>> .net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
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>>>>>> david.hyde%40w<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40w>
>>>>>>>>> cbvi.k12.wi.us
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>> wdg31415%40gma<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/wdg31415%40gma>
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%**
>>>>>> 40barcore.c<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.c>
>>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>> wdg31415%40gmail<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/wdg31415%40gmail>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%**
>>>>>> 40barcore.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>> gwunder%40earthlink.net<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/b.**
>>>>> schulz%40sbcglobal.net<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**zeek786%40gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>
>>> ToiBooks
>>> www.toibooks.com
>>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/cannona%40fireantproductions.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
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> nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/cannona%40fireantproductions.com
>
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