[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)

[Tami Jarvis]

Mike,

Using the material, even if it's not specifically formatted for braille 
is getting easier and easier because of open source braille translation 
software like BRLTTY, liblouis and others. And, of course, if you can 
use speech well with that sort of material, that's also easy. Well, 
depending on how you want to define easy.

For self-study at home, that means you need a braille display there to 
read straight off the web or for electronic books. I was fortunate to 
get an older, basic one I could actually afford, which has really 
helped. Although I am a bad girl and use it for pleasure reading to the 
neglect of using it for study. Must develop better habits! /lol/

Tami


On 02/21/2013 07:57 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
> I won't argue that learning things off the web has certainly changed the way
> we learn.  There are those sites that teach different subjects and they
> provide complete information.  I suppose you just have to look out there on
> the web and see if you find what you need.  If the web suffices, then great.
> If not, and you really need the "whole 9 yards", you may have to get a book,
> or subscribe to a service that provides the book in electronic format.  If
> the latter, then this opens up the question, can you use the material as the
> service provides it?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>
> I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days. If I  were
> going to learn  SQL today, I would go find a website that teaches it, or is
> this not an option in your case?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mike.
>> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these days.
> I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
>> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from Bookshare as a
> Daisy file, then opened the html portion.  It worked well.  I could read the
> code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to the max speed I
> could understand for the text parts.
>> Tracy
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>
>>
>>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>> availability of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.
>>> I'm sighted, so if I have to read print, I can do it.  But as I said,
>>> I'm a slow reader, and that's bad news.  It takes forever to read
>>> something and in a competitive world, you often finish last and the
>>> other guy gets the job or the perks or the promotion when the company
>>> finds out you can't go as fast.  But at least I can do it if I have
>>> to.  But what does the totally blind person do that is trying to
>>> break into programming?  How do they keep up?  And can they get the
>>> books in accessible format?  In Braille?  Braille is expensive, and
>>> not everything is available in hard-copy Braille.  And, braille is on the
> decline, or so they say.
>>>
>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible format
>>> any time soon.  They may figure ... "hey, there's talking books - let
>>> them do it
>>> - they know what the blind person needs".  And then perhaps for some
>>> publishers they just don't care.
>>>
>>> I do think the answer is Braille.  I learned in a course I took about
>>> making software more efficient (or your process) you have to
>>> eliminate the link in the chain that slows you down.  You can't go
>>> any faster than what is limiting you.  So if your eyesight is the
>>> weakest link, you need to remove the need to use vision to read.  And
>>> that means Braille.  And if Braille was available, that would solve
>>> the problem of making the material available for the totally blind,
>>> as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision would impose for
> partially sighted people.
>>>
>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as
>>> the iPad that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a
>>> wireless Braille Display.  Then, a book that you can download to the
>>> iPad SHOULD BE (notice I say SHOULD) accessible through the Braille
>>> display.  I haven't tried this yet myself.  I'm a bit gun-shy
>>> spending $3000 for a Braille display to connect to my iPad with the
>>> thought that I might be wrong. That's a big investment.
>>>
>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.
>>> How do we get the material in accessible form so we can get the same
>>> material that our sighted counterparts are reading and get it at the
>>> same time so that we can learn what we need?
>>>
>>> Your thoughts?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>> Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in
>>> programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification
>>> examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for 39
> years.
>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three
>>> years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been
>>> great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with everyone. New
>>> hires are required to have this certification. The preparation is
>>> exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java Script, CSS, and of
>>> course HTML. If I were applying for a new position I would not even
>>> qualify. The amount of constant study is incredible. I don't mean to
>>> be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this with your eyes wide
>>> open. The amount of extra work required is growing each year.
>>>
>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35
>>> years - something I understand is rather unique these days.  As a
>>> result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that every IT
>>> firm is looking for.  I can share what our company expects developers
>>> to know, and offer some advice on what a person should do to prepare for
> a programming job.
>>>
>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>> Our company is all about web technology.  A few years back all of our
>>> systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they are
>>> re-writing everything using web technology.  Some of the technologies
>>> you would want to know (and this list is not exhaustive) are
>>> HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/Servlets/Java Server Pages
>>> (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat.  Every technology I have mentioned here is
>>> used to develop web applications.  HTML/Javascript is used to develop
>>> the user interface that runs in the browser on the client
>>> workstation, and Java/Servlets/Java Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the
>>> server level.  If you want to understand how web applications work
>>> from the client browser to the back-end server, learning all these
>>> technologies is a must.  The downside is that there is a significant
>>> investment of time.  You're looking at 6 months at least, and probably a
> year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>>>
>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming
>>> Today's systems are generally written using an object oriented approach.
>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language
>>> that is architected with OO in mind.  Our shop uses Java for most
>>> programming work and it does OO pretty well.  That would be a good
>>> first choice.  C++ is another OO language, although our shop doesn't use
> that as heavily as Java.
>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs.  I'd recommend Eclipse.  It's
>>> free, just like Java.  That's one of the big reasons our company went
>>> with Java and Eclipse.  They are mature technologies and they're
>>> free.  You can download them.  You'll also need a good book on Java
>>> that discusses many of the technologies I've mentioned above.  The
>>> Deitel and Deitel series on Java How to Program is a good starting
>>> book.  It gives you a fairly thorough treatment of Java, and deals
>>> with OO/JDBC (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data Structures.  It doesn't
>>> deal with HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can get that elsewhere.
>>>
>>> 3. Experience
>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure
>>> if you could do that at our company.  Perhaps other companies are
>>> different.  Our company REQUIRES at least a degree in something, and
>>> I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who want to get a job in IT
>>> as programmers.  I would suggest calling HR departments to find out a
>>> consensus.  If you don't have a CS degree, then experience is your
>>> next best bet.  And I don't mean getting the Deitel book, writing
>>> their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a programmer".  I mean,
>>> write real applications for your non-profits that give you experience
>>> in real-world problems so that when you get to the company you REALLY
> want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>>>
>>> 4. Expect the technology to change
>>> And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology
>>> will change on you within 2-5 years.  Even after you learn all of
>>> this, expect new technologies to come along which will require you to
>>> learn some or all of these all over again, or learn updates to these
>>> technologies.  If, due to vision issues, you're not the fastest guy
>>> on the block, expect to have to learn the new technologies on your
>>> own time, at home.  So instead of working a 40 hour week, you may be
>>> looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even with everyone else.  I'm
>>> a slow reader.  I only read about 130 words per minute print, whereas a
> normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.
>>> So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing
>>> catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new stuff.  I like
>>> the challenges and the problems I solve, but it would be so much
>>> easier if I could read as fast as everyone else and take less time.
>>> However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.
>>>
>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a
>>> novel than it already is, I'll stop there.  Does that help?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>> Khan
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> @Jim
>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
>>> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
>>> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it
>>> will take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that
>>> actually worth it in that situation?
>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you
>>> cannot make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or
> something like that.
>>>
>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other
>>> one about working in a large company help desk environment, would be
>>> difficult to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most
>>> companies will probably not hire.
>>>
>>> What specific steps do you think I can take  on how to get started on
>>> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford
>>> online course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to
> programming.
>>>
>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
>>> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to
>>> start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes
>>> my ultimate goal is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just
>>> to get my foot in the door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem
> goes on.
>>>
>>> @John
>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you in.
>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years
>>> until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into
> a field.
>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to
>>> land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non
>>> profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to start
>>> learning and / or gaining epxerience?
>>>
>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>> Zeeshan
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi,
>>>>
>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager
>>>> and he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are
>>>> wasting your and the company's time even applying if your b.s degree
>>>> is in
>>> something else.
>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>> relevant
>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>>>>> and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a
>>>>> person working competitively in the field
>>>>>
>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>>>> messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how
>>>>> people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>>>>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a
>>>>> project gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>
>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and
>>>>> bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss and
>>> understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>
>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore,
>>>>> take your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This
>>>>> will be difficult without some formal training, so look for open
>>>>> source projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes,
>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll
>>>>>> learn a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own
>>>>>> than you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You
>>>>>> sap all the fun out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>>> science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know
>>>>>>> many other people who are coders, designers, product managers,
>>>>>>> and even architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative
>>>>>>> way to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a
>>>>>>> flavor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-econom
>>>>>> y-
>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone
>>>>>>> and android will take more time for a blind person.  This is
>>>>>>> because they'll need to use statement based configuration
>>>>>>> language to layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI
> layout tools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming
>>>>>>> language is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to
>>>>>>> be learned about how to do proper user experience designs, how
>>>>>>> to design and write code that is easier to debug and free of common
> bug types, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and
>>>>>>> put it in the app store and not market it.  It's very important
>>>>>>> to think about who you want to download your app and what
>>>>>>> they'll pay for
>>> it.
>>>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>>>>> code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any
>>>>>>> bugs are found.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>>>> expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>>>> like computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It
>>>>>>> implies that you can simply do a bit of self study and then
>>>>>>> start coding up app
>
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