[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)

Zeeshan Khan zeek786 at gmail.com
Fri Feb 22 08:26:07 UTC 2013 

So I am guessing a braille display only works for those who are familiar
with braille and not for those who haven't learned it? In my case, I am
legally blind but I can still read screens, so would bookshare suffice?

-Zeeshan

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Using the material, even if it's not specifically formatted for braille is
> getting easier and easier because of open source braille translation
> software like BRLTTY, liblouis and others. And, of course, if you can use
> speech well with that sort of material, that's also easy. Well, depending
> on how you want to define easy.
>
> For self-study at home, that means you need a braille display there to
> read straight off the web or for electronic books. I was fortunate to get
> an older, basic one I could actually afford, which has really helped.
> Although I am a bad girl and use it for pleasure reading to the neglect of
> using it for study. Must develop better habits! /lol/
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> On 02/21/2013 07:57 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>
>> I won't argue that learning things off the web has certainly changed the
>> way
>> we learn.  There are those sites that teach different subjects and they
>> provide complete information.  I suppose you just have to look out there
>> on
>> the web and see if you find what you need.  If the web suffices, then
>> great.
>> If not, and you really need the "whole 9 yards", you may have to get a
>> book,
>> or subscribe to a service that provides the book in electronic format.  If
>> the latter, then this opens up the question, can you use the material as
>> the
>> service provides it?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>> On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Cc: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>
>> I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days. If I
>>  were
>> going to learn  SQL today, I would go find a website that teaches it, or
>> is
>> this not an option in your case?
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Mike.
>>> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these days.
>>>
>> I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
>>
>>> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from Bookshare as
>>> a
>>>
>> Daisy file, then opened the html portion.  It worked well.  I could read
>> the
>> code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to the max speed I
>> could understand for the text parts.
>>
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>>
>>>  One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>>> availability of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.
>>>> I'm sighted, so if I have to read print, I can do it.  But as I said,
>>>> I'm a slow reader, and that's bad news.  It takes forever to read
>>>> something and in a competitive world, you often finish last and the
>>>> other guy gets the job or the perks or the promotion when the company
>>>> finds out you can't go as fast.  But at least I can do it if I have
>>>> to.  But what does the totally blind person do that is trying to
>>>> break into programming?  How do they keep up?  And can they get the
>>>> books in accessible format?  In Braille?  Braille is expensive, and
>>>> not everything is available in hard-copy Braille.  And, braille is on
>>>> the
>>>>
>>> decline, or so they say.
>>
>>>
>>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible format
>>>> any time soon.  They may figure ... "hey, there's talking books - let
>>>> them do it
>>>> - they know what the blind person needs".  And then perhaps for some
>>>> publishers they just don't care.
>>>>
>>>> I do think the answer is Braille.  I learned in a course I took about
>>>> making software more efficient (or your process) you have to
>>>> eliminate the link in the chain that slows you down.  You can't go
>>>> any faster than what is limiting you.  So if your eyesight is the
>>>> weakest link, you need to remove the need to use vision to read.  And
>>>> that means Braille.  And if Braille was available, that would solve
>>>> the problem of making the material available for the totally blind,
>>>> as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision would impose for
>>>>
>>> partially sighted people.
>>
>>>
>>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as
>>>> the iPad that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a
>>>> wireless Braille Display.  Then, a book that you can download to the
>>>> iPad SHOULD BE (notice I say SHOULD) accessible through the Braille
>>>> display.  I haven't tried this yet myself.  I'm a bit gun-shy
>>>> spending $3000 for a Braille display to connect to my iPad with the
>>>> thought that I might be wrong. That's a big investment.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.
>>>> How do we get the material in accessible form so we can get the same
>>>> material that our sighted counterparts are reading and get it at the
>>>> same time so that we can learn what we need?
>>>>
>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>>> Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in
>>>> programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification
>>>> examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for 39
>>>>
>>> years.
>>
>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three
>>>> years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been
>>>> great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with everyone. New
>>>> hires are required to have this certification. The preparation is
>>>> exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java Script, CSS, and of
>>>> course HTML. If I were applying for a new position I would not even
>>>> qualify. The amount of constant study is incredible. I don't mean to
>>>> be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this with your eyes wide
>>>> open. The amount of extra work required is growing each year.
>>>>
>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35
>>>> years - something I understand is rather unique these days.  As a
>>>> result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that every IT
>>>> firm is looking for.  I can share what our company expects developers
>>>> to know, and offer some advice on what a person should do to prepare for
>>>>
>>> a programming job.
>>
>>>
>>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>>> Our company is all about web technology.  A few years back all of our
>>>> systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they are
>>>> re-writing everything using web technology.  Some of the technologies
>>>> you would want to know (and this list is not exhaustive) are
>>>> HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/**Servlets/Java Server Pages
>>>> (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat.  Every technology I have mentioned here is
>>>> used to develop web applications.  HTML/Javascript is used to develop
>>>> the user interface that runs in the browser on the client
>>>> workstation, and Java/Servlets/Java Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the
>>>> server level.  If you want to understand how web applications work
>>>> from the client browser to the back-end server, learning all these
>>>> technologies is a must.  The downside is that there is a significant
>>>> investment of time.  You're looking at 6 months at least, and probably a
>>>>
>>> year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>>
>>>
>>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming
>>>> Today's systems are generally written using an object oriented approach.
>>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language
>>>> that is architected with OO in mind.  Our shop uses Java for most
>>>> programming work and it does OO pretty well.  That would be a good
>>>> first choice.  C++ is another OO language, although our shop doesn't use
>>>>
>>> that as heavily as Java.
>>
>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs.  I'd recommend Eclipse.  It's
>>>> free, just like Java.  That's one of the big reasons our company went
>>>> with Java and Eclipse.  They are mature technologies and they're
>>>> free.  You can download them.  You'll also need a good book on Java
>>>> that discusses many of the technologies I've mentioned above.  The
>>>> Deitel and Deitel series on Java How to Program is a good starting
>>>> book.  It gives you a fairly thorough treatment of Java, and deals
>>>> with OO/JDBC (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data Structures.  It doesn't
>>>> deal with HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can get that elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Experience
>>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure
>>>> if you could do that at our company.  Perhaps other companies are
>>>> different.  Our company REQUIRES at least a degree in something, and
>>>> I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who want to get a job in IT
>>>> as programmers.  I would suggest calling HR departments to find out a
>>>> consensus.  If you don't have a CS degree, then experience is your
>>>> next best bet.  And I don't mean getting the Deitel book, writing
>>>> their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a programmer".  I mean,
>>>> write real applications for your non-profits that give you experience
>>>> in real-world problems so that when you get to the company you REALLY
>>>>
>>> want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>>
>>>
>>>> 4. Expect the technology to change
>>>> And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology
>>>> will change on you within 2-5 years.  Even after you learn all of
>>>> this, expect new technologies to come along which will require you to
>>>> learn some or all of these all over again, or learn updates to these
>>>> technologies.  If, due to vision issues, you're not the fastest guy
>>>> on the block, expect to have to learn the new technologies on your
>>>> own time, at home.  So instead of working a 40 hour week, you may be
>>>> looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even with everyone else.  I'm
>>>> a slow reader.  I only read about 130 words per minute print, whereas a
>>>>
>>> normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>>
>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.
>>>> So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing
>>>> catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new stuff.  I like
>>>> the challenges and the problems I solve, but it would be so much
>>>> easier if I could read as fast as everyone else and take less time.
>>>> However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a
>>>> novel than it already is, I'll stop there.  Does that help?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>>> Khan
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> @Jim
>>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
>>>> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
>>>> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it
>>>> will take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that
>>>> actually worth it in that situation?
>>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you
>>>> cannot make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or
>>>>
>>> something like that.
>>
>>>
>>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other
>>>> one about working in a large company help desk environment, would be
>>>> difficult to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most
>>>> companies will probably not hire.
>>>>
>>>> What specific steps do you think I can take  on how to get started on
>>>> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford
>>>> online course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to
>>>>
>>> programming.
>>
>>>
>>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
>>>> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to
>>>> start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes
>>>> my ultimate goal is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just
>>>> to get my foot in the door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem
>>>>
>>> goes on.
>>
>>>
>>>> @John
>>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you
>>>> in.
>>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years
>>>> until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into
>>>>
>>> a field.
>>
>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to
>>>> land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non
>>>> profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to start
>>>> learning and / or gaining epxerience?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>  hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager
>>>>> and he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are
>>>>> wasting your and the company's time even applying if your b.s degree
>>>>> is in
>>>>>
>>>> something else.
>>>>
>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>>> relevant
>>>>>
>>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>>>>>> and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a
>>>>>> person working competitively in the field
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>>>>> messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how
>>>>>> people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>>>>>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a
>>>>>> project gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and
>>>>>> bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss and
>>>>>>
>>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org
>>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore,
>>>>>> take your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This
>>>>>> will be difficult without some formal training, so look for open
>>>>>> source projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes,
>>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll
>>>>>>> learn a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own
>>>>>>> than you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You
>>>>>>> sap all the fun out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>>>> science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know
>>>>>>>> many other people who are coders, designers, product managers,
>>>>>>>> and even architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative
>>>>>>>> way to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a
>>>>>>>> flavor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/****175065/inside-the-app-economy-****<http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.**cultofmac.com/175065/inside-**
>>>>>>> the-app-econom<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-econom>
>>>>>>> y-
>>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/****>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone
>>>>>>>> and android will take more time for a blind person.  This is
>>>>>>>> because they'll need to use statement based configuration
>>>>>>>> language to layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> layout tools.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming
>>>>>>>> language is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to
>>>>>>>> be learned about how to do proper user experience designs, how
>>>>>>>> to design and write code that is easier to debug and free of common
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bug types, etc.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and
>>>>>>>> put it in the app store and not market it.  It's very important
>>>>>>>> to think about who you want to download your app and what
>>>>>>>> they'll pay for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>>>>>> code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any
>>>>>>>> bugs are found.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>>>>> expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>>>>> like computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It
>>>>>>>> implies that you can simply do a bit of self study and then
>>>>>>>> start coding up app
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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-- 

Zeeshan Khan

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