[nfbcs] Blindness and Computer Science RE: (no subject)

Fri Feb 22 07:25:43 UTC 2013

Thanks Tami,
I will definitely check out oreilly. Yeah, I got osme thinking to do i
guess. because yo uare right, I can put in all the effort I want and at the
end of the day, it will either pay off or it won't, but I just need ot be
smart about it. Actually, the App I created, is an independent project of
mine, so I hope it goes well.

Regards,
Zeeshan

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:

> Zeeshan,
>
> Yes, I really do enjoy it. So that's why I'm kinda plugging along at my
> self-education again so I'll be prepared in case something comes up out
> here in the sticks. And I can use it in other ways to contribute while
> staying nice and poor... But that's just where I'm at right now. Putting
> the free in freelance! /lol/
>
> Best learning resource ever: http://oreilly.com. You can find a lot of
> other "recommended reading" lists through your study and research in
> whichever language you choose. Since you're already in economics, finding
> out which language the most used programs are for that field and focusing
> on that would probably be a really good bet.
>
> Sounds like you're already doing some things that will look good on your
> resume while not making you rich. /smile/ You're also gaining knowledge to
> use when it's time to write that above-the-cut cover letter! And don't
> forget to keep your eyes open for any opportunity along the way that you
> are ready to take advantage of. Or even just to pause a sec to talk geek to
> the programmers at the office. Or to make an intelligent passing remark to
> the boss who's muttering about some application or other. Stuff like that.
> Well, I do that anyway, since I can't resist; the results are often
> surprising to me.
>
> Can you get where you want to go more quickly than by doing the 3 or 4
> years of night school? Who knows? A lot will depend on you, on the economy
> and on pure dumb luck and serendipity. If you happen to be prepared by next
> Tuesday when that foot in the door chance wanders by, then you've saved a
> lot of time. Or you could just be really exhausted next Tuesday, having
> worked yourself into a coma to be prepared for something that doesn't
> happen.
>
> If you do nothing, nothing will happen. That's another way to think of it.
> When you do decide you're ready to ship out that resume and cover letter
> for every entry level programming job you get a whiff of, you're going to
> up against some competition with the right set of letters to show for
> themselves, and that's going to affect your odds. Honestly, though,
> applying for a job is nothing but a crap shoot anyway if you want to think
> about it. Whatever it is you do to weight your odds for success will
> improve your chance for success.
>
> Keep us posted how it goes. /smile/
>
> Tami
>
>
> On 02/20/2013 06:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>
>> @Tami
>> Sounds like you really enjoy it. Any specific steps yo uwould recommend
>> for
>> someone who already ahs a BA in economics and wnats ot learn programming
>> and gain experience to land an entry level job?
>>
>> @Aaron
>> Based on your experience, how would you recommend I get started learning
>> and / or gaining experience. Any specific ideas you owuld suggest?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Zeeshan
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Aaron Cannon <
>> cannona at fireantproductions.com**> wrote:
>>
>>  Another language to look at would be Python.  Even though I mostly
>>> work in PHP and JavaScript at work, Python is my favorite.  It's good
>>> for the web, good for the server, and as a few companies have shown,
>>> such as Dropbox, it can be good for the desktop as well.
>>>
>>> Something else I'd add to the conversation is that when you decide to
>>> learn a programming language, you should keep in mind that fluency is
>>> not just about writing well in a language, but also being able to read
>>> and understand what others have written.  For me, the latter has
>>> proven to be much more difficult to master than the former.
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> On 2/20/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Teehee. Love it! And all very good. Funny that not that long ago, C/C++,
>>>> etc., was just too old school... So Ms. Too Cool For That Here now
>>>> frequently wishes she'd taken time out to learn it! /lol/
>>>>
>>>> On 02/20/2013 11:56 AM, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> the anti-novel
>>>>> two words: mobile programming
>>>>> developers.android.com
>>>>> developer.apple.com
>>>>> languages to know: Java, ObjectiveC, C/C++
>>>>> good books on bookshare.org = easiest ones to read, anything too
>>>>> complicated is worthless
>>>>>
>>>>> You can hook your apple or android phone or tablet directly to your
>>>>> computer and download your app right in front of you.
>>>>>
>>>>> bill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/20/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Zeeshan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are all great questions! I'll see if I can manage answers
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> turning them into a novel. /smile/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We just moved out into the sticks for family reasons, so what I do now
>>>>>> is wonder how the heck to get into programming somehow here. Which
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> done before, so we'll see how it goes. /smile/ I'm focusing on getting
>>>>>> my database skills back up to snuff, since I see more possibility to
>>>>>>
>>>>> use
>>>
>>>> those for smaller businesses around here. So I'm using php for the
>>>>>> programming to build the user interface on my practice project. The
>>>>>> MySQL/php combination is so ubiquitous these days that it seems as
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> a place to start as any, especially since most of my background is
>>>>>> web-based. I do need to pick a non-web language sooner or later to
>>>>>>
>>>>> focus
>>>
>>>> on next. Even what I did know has changed so much that I just need to
>>>>>> relearn everything! /lol/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm still getting information from the job market we just moved from,
>>>>>> and it's finally picking up after the long dearth. One thing I really
>>>>>> notice in those announcements is the focus on experience over
>>>>>> education
>>>>>> in qualifications, even for the more advanced positions. Interesting.
>>>>>> Also, more mention of "related experience," which gives latitude for a
>>>>>> career-changer I should think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Challenges as a not-young career-change programmer... The biggest
>>>>>>
>>>>> hurdle
>>>
>>>> I've had to overcome is the credibility gap that comes from lack of
>>>>>> sheepskin. But don't you have a degree? That gives you an edge right
>>>>>> there when it comes to having your ideas heard and implemented, which
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>
>>>> what leads to greater opportunity after you do get your foot in the
>>>>>> door. It can be really frustrating, but the solution is patience and a
>>>>>> whole lot of that extra time and effort just to prove yourself. But,
>>>>>> there, the advantage of having worked in other areas of business is
>>>>>>
>>>>> that
>>>
>>>> you can demonstrate that you know a lot that the folks you're working
>>>>>> for will understand and appreciate. When it comes down to it, computer
>>>>>> skill and programming expertise is really great for advancing one's
>>>>>> career without absolutely needing to drop everything to polish off the
>>>>>> degree, which is how I ended up shifting into it. /smile/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, those dreaded young kids who have been programming since they
>>>>>>
>>>>> were
>>>
>>>> in diapers also have a whole lot of energy without necessarily having
>>>>>> gotten into those other life responsibilities us old and weary types
>>>>>> have. They can program circles around you all day, then go home and
>>>>>> spend the night learning all about the new stuff that is coming along
>>>>>> and getting good at it... I've learned to enjoy feeling stupid and
>>>>>> left
>>>>>> behind because I can learn a lot from what they're learning. /smile/ I
>>>>>> just have to remember that I can leverage my overall experience and
>>>>>> maturity to keep up in ways they haven't learned to yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also need to target my off-the-job learning more efficiently,
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> everything is always changing. What I know today will get me nowhere
>>>>>> tomorrow. So that counts as a challenge for sure, although that's what
>>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>
>>>> like about the field. There's a lot of tedium involved in many facets
>>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>
>>>> the programming process, but you never have time to just settle back
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>
>>>> get bored and complacent. /smile/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd better end the novel now before I get myself in real trouble. I
>>>>>> found making the switch to programming and design and development to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> very worthwhile and keep coming back to that as my best option for
>>>>>> getting back into something I can do as a blind person here, if not so
>>>>>> conveniently as if there were, you know, jobs out here. /lol/ But all
>>>>>> that earlier business experience will come in real handy again as we
>>>>>>
>>>>> get
>>>
>>>> settled and get back out for networking and all. I can, I hope
>>>>>> eventually, chat up some opportunity. /smile/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let us know how your further research goes and what you decide to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02/19/2013 03:56 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Tami,
>>>>>>> Thanks for your thoughtful response.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what kind of programming do you do now? Do you think age plays a
>>>>>>> factor
>>>>>>> when it comes to learning programming because nowadays you have young
>>>>>>> kids
>>>>>>> in their teens becoming wizards at programming. It seems like your
>>>>>>> experience has been great a a programmer, what are some of the
>>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>>> you face being a programmer in general, not necessarily being blind,
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> it came to learning programming? Any specific resources you would be
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> ot point me to, as I am looking to get started right away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Hi, and welcome!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like you, I got into programming along the way of my career and made
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a
>>>
>>>> career switch of it starting about the time I got to be legally
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> blind.
>>>
>>>> I
>>>>>>>> just happened to have the opportunity to pick up a project no one
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> else
>>>
>>>> wanted, which led to a more advanced project, which got me hooked. I
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> also see the advantage of having those skills for the future because
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> technology was coming along that would make it possible to continue
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> do
>>>>>>>> it as I lost the ability to read along the way. Back then, it was a
>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>> advantage to be able to read print because there wasn't the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>
>>>> wealth of accessible reading material there is now. Stuff happened,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> so
>>>
>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>> happy all that material I need to read is available in the formats I
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> now to get back up to snuff and advance my skills. Whew!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oddly, the new stuff I'm learning nonvisually from the get go is
>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>> proving easier than what I'm re-learning that I learned visually and
>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>> have to totally reconceptualize, especially for programming. That
>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>> prove a thing, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. /smile/ The
>>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> used to need a pencil and drawing pad for on the design end is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dratted
>>>
>>>> difficult, but since I know blind people who do it and have picked up
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> hints of how from them, I'm beginning to make headway even there.
>>>>>>>> Whew!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the bit where you need "a solid foundation in computer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> science"
>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> Generally, it is people who *aren't* in the field who come up with
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> one. Real programmers these days seem to be more of the opinion --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>
>>>> so
>>>>>>>> am I -- that you can get going and accomplish quite a lot without
>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>> knowing all the nitty gritty underlayers between your program and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That being said, it wouldn't hurt to read up on the machines
>>>>>>>> themselves
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> you don't already have a general idea of how they work below the
>>>>>>>> surface.
>>>>>>>> Programming is really communicating with the machine in a way that
>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>> sense to it. Most modern programming languages enable you to do that
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> using existing compilers that translate your instructions down to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> machine itself. So if you learn Java, say, you can focus on what is
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> and let the Java compiler take care of the rest. If that makes
>>>>>>>> sense.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> for learning purposes of *how* to use Java to do more than send
>>>>>>>> greetings
>>>>>>>> to the world or make balls bounce colorfully, I think it would be a
>>>>>>>> strength to understand how and why at least in a general way. But
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that
>>>
>>>> could be just me. /smile/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Er... If you haven't really gotten started yet, I will translate my
>>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>>> attempt at humor: "Hello, World!" That is the first program you will
>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>> write in any programming language. /lol/ Then you will probably give
>>>>>>>> greetings in colorful text and... Well, it's a start, and I'm doing
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> tutorials, and it's still there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 02/18/2013 08:28 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Hi Nicole,
>>>>>>>>> Yeah sorry about that, I realized I hadn't included a subject after
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I
>>>
>>>> sent
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am looking to establish a solid foundation in programming whether
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> in programming for the computer or the internet. I really want to
>>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> learning the basics and work my way up to being good enough to land
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a
>>>
>>>> job
>>>>>>>>> hopefully.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What I hear many people say is , if you don't have a solid
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> foundation
>>>
>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> computer science, it doesn't make sense to jump into different
>>>>>>>>> languages
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> you are a beginner.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>>>>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>****wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     What kind of programming are you thinking about? There is
>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> runs on the computer itself and there is programming that works on
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> internet. Both have high level and low level languages.
>>>>>>>>>> Also, on a side note, please include subjects in your emails in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> futures
>>>>>>>>>> as emails without subjects are often suspected of being spam or a
>>>>>>>>>> virus.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>**]
>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:09 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute beginner. As
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>
>>>> legally
>>>>>>>>>> blind person I want to ask you all if anyone has learned
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>
>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> computer science as a blind person. The things is I have already
>>>>>>>>>> gotten
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> degree in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not sure if I am
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> late
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the field. So how did any of you learn computer science/
>>>>>>>>>> programming?
>>>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>>> resources did you use? how long did it take you to become a decent
>>>>>>>>>> programmer, or at least good enough to land a job? I am not trying
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>> back to school and get a Bachelors as it own't really help me,
>>>>>>>>>> plus
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> have the time as I am working. I really want to learn computer
>>>>>>>>>> science
>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>> am looking to make a career change, and the future is in
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> technology.
>>>
>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> aware of many online resources, like codecademy, coursera and
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>>>> things online, but not sure if I should get into these, as I lack
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> foundation in computer science. What is the job market like , in
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> opinion?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences,
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ToiBooks
>>>>>>>>>> www.toibooks.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/****ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks>
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks>
>>>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> ntorcolini%40wavecable.co<
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>> ntorcolini%40wavecable.co<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.co>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  m
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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-- 

Zeeshan Khan

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