[nfbcs] Blindness and Computer Science RE: (no subject)

Thu Feb 21 21:06:52 UTC 2013

Zeeshan,

Yes, I really do enjoy it. So that's why I'm kinda plugging along at my 
self-education again so I'll be prepared in case something comes up out 
here in the sticks. And I can use it in other ways to contribute while 
staying nice and poor... But that's just where I'm at right now. Putting 
the free in freelance! /lol/

Best learning resource ever: http://oreilly.com. You can find a lot of 
other "recommended reading" lists through your study and research in 
whichever language you choose. Since you're already in economics, 
finding out which language the most used programs are for that field and 
focusing on that would probably be a really good bet.

Sounds like you're already doing some things that will look good on your 
resume while not making you rich. /smile/ You're also gaining knowledge 
to use when it's time to write that above-the-cut cover letter! And 
don't forget to keep your eyes open for any opportunity along the way 
that you are ready to take advantage of. Or even just to pause a sec to 
talk geek to the programmers at the office. Or to make an intelligent 
passing remark to the boss who's muttering about some application or 
other. Stuff like that. Well, I do that anyway, since I can't resist; 
the results are often surprising to me.

Can you get where you want to go more quickly than by doing the 3 or 4 
years of night school? Who knows? A lot will depend on you, on the 
economy and on pure dumb luck and serendipity. If you happen to be 
prepared by next Tuesday when that foot in the door chance wanders by, 
then you've saved a lot of time. Or you could just be really exhausted 
next Tuesday, having worked yourself into a coma to be prepared for 
something that doesn't happen.

If you do nothing, nothing will happen. That's another way to think of 
it. When you do decide you're ready to ship out that resume and cover 
letter for every entry level programming job you get a whiff of, you're 
going to up against some competition with the right set of letters to 
show for themselves, and that's going to affect your odds. Honestly, 
though, applying for a job is nothing but a crap shoot anyway if you 
want to think about it. Whatever it is you do to weight your odds for 
success will improve your chance for success.

Keep us posted how it goes. /smile/

Tami

On 02/20/2013 06:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
> @Tami
> Sounds like you really enjoy it. Any specific steps yo uwould recommend for
> someone who already ahs a BA in economics and wnats ot learn programming
> and gain experience to land an entry level job?
>
> @Aaron
> Based on your experience, how would you recommend I get started learning
> and / or gaining experience. Any specific ideas you owuld suggest?
>
> Thanks,
> Zeeshan
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Aaron Cannon <
> cannona at fireantproductions.com> wrote:
>
>> Another language to look at would be Python.  Even though I mostly
>> work in PHP and JavaScript at work, Python is my favorite.  It's good
>> for the web, good for the server, and as a few companies have shown,
>> such as Dropbox, it can be good for the desktop as well.
>>
>> Something else I'd add to the conversation is that when you decide to
>> learn a programming language, you should keep in mind that fluency is
>> not just about writing well in a language, but also being able to read
>> and understand what others have written.  For me, the latter has
>> proven to be much more difficult to master than the former.
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>> On 2/20/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>>> Teehee. Love it! And all very good. Funny that not that long ago, C/C++,
>>> etc., was just too old school... So Ms. Too Cool For That Here now
>>> frequently wishes she'd taken time out to learn it! /lol/
>>>
>>> On 02/20/2013 11:56 AM, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>> the anti-novel
>>>> two words: mobile programming
>>>> developers.android.com
>>>> developer.apple.com
>>>> languages to know: Java, ObjectiveC, C/C++
>>>> good books on bookshare.org = easiest ones to read, anything too
>>>> complicated is worthless
>>>>
>>>> You can hook your apple or android phone or tablet directly to your
>>>> computer and download your app right in front of you.
>>>>
>>>> bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/20/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>>>>> Zeeshan,
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are all great questions! I'll see if I can manage answers without
>>>>> turning them into a novel. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> We just moved out into the sticks for family reasons, so what I do now
>>>>> is wonder how the heck to get into programming somehow here. Which I've
>>>>> done before, so we'll see how it goes. /smile/ I'm focusing on getting
>>>>> my database skills back up to snuff, since I see more possibility to
>> use
>>>>> those for smaller businesses around here. So I'm using php for the
>>>>> programming to build the user interface on my practice project. The
>>>>> MySQL/php combination is so ubiquitous these days that it seems as good
>>>>> a place to start as any, especially since most of my background is
>>>>> web-based. I do need to pick a non-web language sooner or later to
>> focus
>>>>> on next. Even what I did know has changed so much that I just need to
>>>>> relearn everything! /lol/
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still getting information from the job market we just moved from,
>>>>> and it's finally picking up after the long dearth. One thing I really
>>>>> notice in those announcements is the focus on experience over education
>>>>> in qualifications, even for the more advanced positions. Interesting.
>>>>> Also, more mention of "related experience," which gives latitude for a
>>>>> career-changer I should think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Challenges as a not-young career-change programmer... The biggest
>> hurdle
>>>>> I've had to overcome is the credibility gap that comes from lack of
>>>>> sheepskin. But don't you have a degree? That gives you an edge right
>>>>> there when it comes to having your ideas heard and implemented, which
>> is
>>>>> what leads to greater opportunity after you do get your foot in the
>>>>> door. It can be really frustrating, but the solution is patience and a
>>>>> whole lot of that extra time and effort just to prove yourself. But,
>>>>> there, the advantage of having worked in other areas of business is
>> that
>>>>> you can demonstrate that you know a lot that the folks you're working
>>>>> for will understand and appreciate. When it comes down to it, computer
>>>>> skill and programming expertise is really great for advancing one's
>>>>> career without absolutely needing to drop everything to polish off the
>>>>> degree, which is how I ended up shifting into it. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, those dreaded young kids who have been programming since they
>> were
>>>>> in diapers also have a whole lot of energy without necessarily having
>>>>> gotten into those other life responsibilities us old and weary types
>>>>> have. They can program circles around you all day, then go home and
>>>>> spend the night learning all about the new stuff that is coming along
>>>>> and getting good at it... I've learned to enjoy feeling stupid and left
>>>>> behind because I can learn a lot from what they're learning. /smile/ I
>>>>> just have to remember that I can leverage my overall experience and
>>>>> maturity to keep up in ways they haven't learned to yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also need to target my off-the-job learning more efficiently, because
>>>>> everything is always changing. What I know today will get me nowhere
>>>>> tomorrow. So that counts as a challenge for sure, although that's what
>> I
>>>>> like about the field. There's a lot of tedium involved in many facets
>> of
>>>>> the programming process, but you never have time to just settle back
>> and
>>>>> get bored and complacent. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd better end the novel now before I get myself in real trouble. I
>>>>> found making the switch to programming and design and development to be
>>>>> very worthwhile and keep coming back to that as my best option for
>>>>> getting back into something I can do as a blind person here, if not so
>>>>> conveniently as if there were, you know, jobs out here. /lol/ But all
>>>>> that earlier business experience will come in real handy again as we
>> get
>>>>> settled and get back out for networking and all. I can, I hope
>>>>> eventually, chat up some opportunity. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us know how your further research goes and what you decide to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/19/2013 03:56 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Tami,
>>>>>> Thanks for your thoughtful response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what kind of programming do you do now? Do you think age plays a
>>>>>> factor
>>>>>> when it comes to learning programming because nowadays you have young
>>>>>> kids
>>>>>> in their teens becoming wizards at programming. It seems like your
>>>>>> experience has been great a a programmer, what are some of the
>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>> you face being a programmer in general, not necessarily being blind,
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> it came to learning programming? Any specific resources you would be
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> ot point me to, as I am looking to get started right away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi, and welcome!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like you, I got into programming along the way of my career and made
>> a
>>>>>>> career switch of it starting about the time I got to be legally
>> blind.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> just happened to have the opportunity to pick up a project no one
>> else
>>>>>>> wanted, which led to a more advanced project, which got me hooked. I
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> also see the advantage of having those skills for the future because
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> technology was coming along that would make it possible to continue
>> to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> it as I lost the ability to read along the way. Back then, it was a
>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>> advantage to be able to read print because there wasn't the
>> equivalent
>>>>>>> wealth of accessible reading material there is now. Stuff happened,
>> so
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> happy all that material I need to read is available in the formats I
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> now to get back up to snuff and advance my skills. Whew!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oddly, the new stuff I'm learning nonvisually from the get go is
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> proving easier than what I'm re-learning that I learned visually and
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> have to totally reconceptualize, especially for programming. That
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> prove a thing, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. /smile/ The stuff
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> used to need a pencil and drawing pad for on the design end is
>> dratted
>>>>>>> difficult, but since I know blind people who do it and have picked up
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> hints of how from them, I'm beginning to make headway even there.
>>>>>>> Whew!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the bit where you need "a solid foundation in computer
>> science"
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Generally, it is people who *aren't* in the field who come up with
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> one. Real programmers these days seem to be more of the opinion --
>> and
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> am I -- that you can get going and accomplish quite a lot without
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> knowing all the nitty gritty underlayers between your program and the
>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That being said, it wouldn't hurt to read up on the machines
>>>>>>> themselves
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you don't already have a general idea of how they work below the
>>>>>>> surface.
>>>>>>> Programming is really communicating with the machine in a way that
>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>> sense to it. Most modern programming languages enable you to do that
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> using existing compilers that translate your instructions down to the
>>>>>>> machine itself. So if you learn Java, say, you can focus on what is
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> and let the Java compiler take care of the rest. If that makes sense.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> for learning purposes of *how* to use Java to do more than send
>>>>>>> greetings
>>>>>>> to the world or make balls bounce colorfully, I think it would be a
>>>>>>> strength to understand how and why at least in a general way. But
>> that
>>>>>>> could be just me. /smile/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Er... If you haven't really gotten started yet, I will translate my
>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>> attempt at humor: "Hello, World!" That is the first program you will
>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>> write in any programming language. /lol/ Then you will probably give
>>>>>>> greetings in colorful text and... Well, it's a start, and I'm doing
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> tutorials, and it's still there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 02/18/2013 08:28 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Nicole,
>>>>>>>> Yeah sorry about that, I realized I hadn't included a subject after
>> I
>>>>>>>> sent
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am looking to establish a solid foundation in programming whether
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> in programming for the computer or the internet. I really want to
>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> learning the basics and work my way up to being good enough to land
>> a
>>>>>>>> job
>>>>>>>> hopefully.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I hear many people say is , if you don't have a solid
>> foundation
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> computer science, it doesn't make sense to jump into different
>>>>>>>> languages
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> you are a beginner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>>>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>**wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     What kind of programming are you thinking about? There is
>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> runs on the computer itself and there is programming that works on
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> internet. Both have high level and low level languages.
>>>>>>>>> Also, on a side note, please include subjects in your emails in the
>>>>>>>>> futures
>>>>>>>>> as emails without subjects are often suspected of being spam or a
>>>>>>>>> virus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:09 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute beginner. As
>> a
>>>>>>>>> legally
>>>>>>>>> blind person I want to ask you all if anyone has learned
>> programming
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> computer science as a blind person. The things is I have already
>>>>>>>>> gotten
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> degree in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not sure if I am too
>>>>>>>>> late
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the field. So how did any of you learn computer science/
>>>>>>>>> programming?
>>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>> resources did you use? how long did it take you to become a decent
>>>>>>>>> programmer, or at least good enough to land a job? I am not trying
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>> back to school and get a Bachelors as it own't really help me, plus
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> have the time as I am working. I really want to learn computer
>>>>>>>>> science
>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>> am looking to make a career change, and the future is in
>> technology.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>> aware of many online resources, like codecademy, coursera and other
>>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>>> things online, but not sure if I should get into these, as I lack a
>>>>>>>>> foundation in computer science. What is the job market like , in
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> opinion?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences,
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ToiBooks
>>>>>>>>> www.toibooks.com
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks>
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>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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