[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
Mike Jolls
majolls at cox.net
Fri Feb 22 14:05:37 UTC 2013
Being a partially sighted person (legally blind like you) and a Braille
reader myself, I'll weigh in on this. Others can comment too.
Whether using Braille ... or a Braille display ... might be useful to you
really depends on how quickly and easily you can read and absorb printed
material. According to studies I have read, a normal reading speed for a
normally sighted person is about 250 words per minute. The question you
have to answer is "how fast do I read in comparison?". If you can read
print at a normally sighted person's rate, and you don't have any difficulty
reading the normal sized print, then there's no need to entertain the idea
of purchasing a Braille display or using any alternate method. You can
therefore disregard the rest of my response if you fall into this category.
If however, due to your blindness, your reading rate is slower than a
normally sighted person, then an alternate method such as Braille might be
useful for you. So then the question is not so much ... "should I purchase
a Braille display?" ... but rather ... "do I read at a rate close enough to
the standard such that I don't need to adopt any alternate method or
purchase any technology to do that?". If your print reading rate is
significantly below the normal rate, then learning Braille would allow you
to read at a rate that is not impacted by your vision. And if the Braille
rate is faster than what your vision permits, then you can see that Braille
would be a faster method and could give you obvious advantages. In that
case, the Braille display might be something you'd want to consider.
So the need to learn Braille, or getting a Braille display, really depends
on whether and how easily you can read print at a normal rate. And, if
there's any impact to you if you exclusively read print. Does reading print
frustrate you because you take longer to read pleasure material? Does
reading print impact your performance at work? Does it impact your ability
to get promotions or do what you want professionally? If there are no
negative results from continuing to use your vision and reading print, then
I don't see a need to learn Braille or get a device such as a Braille
display. If however, reading print is slower and has impact to you,
pursuing Braille could be a good thing.
Now here are some things about Braille that might be interesting to you ...
1. A Braille display is used by people that already know Braille. So yes,
you'd have to learn it first to be able to use and benefit from a Braille
display.
2. Braille takes awhile to learn. It took me about 9 months as a working
person (studying it in my spare time) to learn it.
3. There are a couple of Braille codes. To be able to use it in all
situations, you need to learn them both.
4. Braille displays are expensive. The cost is determined by the number of
characters the device can render. A 40 character display I'm considering is
about $3000. There are 80 character models that run around $6000.
I could go into my own personal experiences with print and Braille, but
that's not the question you asked. Your question was more about .. "I read
print. Should I consider a Braille display?". I hope what I've said helps
answer the question.
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:26 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
So I am guessing a braille display only works for those who are familiar
with braille and not for those who haven't learned it? In my case, I am
legally blind but I can still read screens, so would bookshare suffice?
-Zeeshan
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Using the material, even if it's not specifically formatted for
> braille is getting easier and easier because of open source braille
> translation software like BRLTTY, liblouis and others. And, of course,
> if you can use speech well with that sort of material, that's also
> easy. Well, depending on how you want to define easy.
>
> For self-study at home, that means you need a braille display there to
> read straight off the web or for electronic books. I was fortunate to
> get an older, basic one I could actually afford, which has really helped.
> Although I am a bad girl and use it for pleasure reading to the
> neglect of using it for study. Must develop better habits! /lol/
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> On 02/21/2013 07:57 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>
>> I won't argue that learning things off the web has certainly changed
>> the way we learn. There are those sites that teach different
>> subjects and they provide complete information. I suppose you just
>> have to look out there on the web and see if you find what you need.
>> If the web suffices, then great.
>> If not, and you really need the "whole 9 yards", you may have to get
>> a book, or subscribe to a service that provides the book in
>> electronic format. If the latter, then this opens up the question,
>> can you use the material as the service provides it?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Cc: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>
>> I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days. If
>> I were going to learn SQL today, I would go find a website that
>> teaches it, or is this not an option in your case?
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike.
>>> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these days.
>>>
>> I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
>>
>>> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from
>>> Bookshare as a
>>>
>> Daisy file, then opened the html portion. It worked well. I could
>> read the code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to the
>> max speed I could understand for the text parts.
>>
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>>
>>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>>> availability of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.
>>>> I'm sighted, so if I have to read print, I can do it. But as I
>>>> said, I'm a slow reader, and that's bad news. It takes forever to
>>>> read something and in a competitive world, you often finish last
>>>> and the other guy gets the job or the perks or the promotion when
>>>> the company finds out you can't go as fast. But at least I can do
>>>> it if I have to. But what does the totally blind person do that is
>>>> trying to break into programming? How do they keep up? And can
>>>> they get the books in accessible format? In Braille? Braille is
>>>> expensive, and not everything is available in hard-copy Braille.
>>>> And, braille is on the
>>>>
>>> decline, or so they say.
>>
>>>
>>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible
>>>> format any time soon. They may figure ... "hey, there's talking
>>>> books - let them do it
>>>> - they know what the blind person needs". And then perhaps for
>>>> some publishers they just don't care.
>>>>
>>>> I do think the answer is Braille. I learned in a course I took
>>>> about making software more efficient (or your process) you have to
>>>> eliminate the link in the chain that slows you down. You can't go
>>>> any faster than what is limiting you. So if your eyesight is the
>>>> weakest link, you need to remove the need to use vision to read.
>>>> And that means Braille. And if Braille was available, that would
>>>> solve the problem of making the material available for the totally
>>>> blind, as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision would
>>>> impose for
>>>>
>>> partially sighted people.
>>
>>>
>>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as
>>>> the iPad that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a
>>>> wireless Braille Display. Then, a book that you can download to
>>>> the iPad SHOULD BE (notice I say SHOULD) accessible through the
>>>> Braille display. I haven't tried this yet myself. I'm a bit
>>>> gun-shy spending $3000 for a Braille display to connect to my iPad
>>>> with the thought that I might be wrong. That's a big investment.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.
>>>> How do we get the material in accessible form so we can get the
>>>> same material that our sighted counterparts are reading and get it
>>>> at the same time so that we can learn what we need?
>>>>
>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>>> Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in
>>>> programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification
>>>> examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for
>>>> 39
>>>>
>>> years.
>>
>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three
>>>> years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been
>>>> great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with everyone. New
>>>> hires are required to have this certification. The preparation is
>>>> exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java Script, CSS, and
>>>> of course HTML. If I were applying for a new position I would not
>>>> even qualify. The amount of constant study is incredible. I don't
>>>> mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this with your
>>>> eyes wide open. The amount of extra work required is growing each year.
>>>>
>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35
>>>> years - something I understand is rather unique these days. As a
>>>> result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that every IT
>>>> firm is looking for. I can share what our company expects
>>>> developers to know, and offer some advice on what a person should
>>>> do to prepare for
>>>>
>>> a programming job.
>>
>>>
>>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>>> Our company is all about web technology. A few years back all of
>>>> our systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they
>>>> are re-writing everything using web technology. Some of the
>>>> technologies you would want to know (and this list is not
>>>> exhaustive) are HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/**Servlets/Java Server
>>>> Pages (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat. Every technology I have mentioned
>>>> here is used to develop web applications. HTML/Javascript is used
>>>> to develop the user interface that runs in the browser on the
>>>> client workstation, and Java/Servlets/Java Server
>>>> Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level. If you want to understand
>>>> how web applications work from the client browser to the back-end
>>>> server, learning all these technologies is a must. The downside is
>>>> that there is a significant investment of time. You're looking at
>>>> 6 months at least, and probably a
>>>>
>>> year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>>
>>>
>>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming Today's systems are generally
>>>> written using an object oriented approach.
>>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language
>>>> that is architected with OO in mind. Our shop uses Java for most
>>>> programming work and it does OO pretty well. That would be a good
>>>> first choice. C++ is another OO language, although our shop
>>>> doesn't use
>>>>
>>> that as heavily as Java.
>>
>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs. I'd recommend Eclipse. It's
>>>> free, just like Java. That's one of the big reasons our company
>>>> went with Java and Eclipse. They are mature technologies and
>>>> they're free. You can download them. You'll also need a good book
>>>> on Java that discusses many of the technologies I've mentioned
>>>> above. The Deitel and Deitel series on Java How to Program is a
>>>> good starting book. It gives you a fairly thorough treatment of
>>>> Java, and deals with OO/JDBC (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data
>>>> Structures. It doesn't deal with HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can
get that elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Experience
>>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure
>>>> if you could do that at our company. Perhaps other companies are
>>>> different. Our company REQUIRES at least a degree in something,
>>>> and I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who want to get a job
>>>> in IT as programmers. I would suggest calling HR departments to
>>>> find out a consensus. If you don't have a CS degree, then
>>>> experience is your next best bet. And I don't mean getting the
>>>> Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a
>>>> programmer". I mean, write real applications for your non-profits
>>>> that give you experience in real-world problems so that when you
>>>> get to the company you REALLY
>>>>
>>> want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>>
>>>
>>>> 4. Expect the technology to change
>>>> And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology
>>>> will change on you within 2-5 years. Even after you learn all of
>>>> this, expect new technologies to come along which will require you
>>>> to learn some or all of these all over again, or learn updates to
>>>> these technologies. If, due to vision issues, you're not the
>>>> fastest guy on the block, expect to have to learn the new
>>>> technologies on your own time, at home. So instead of working a 40
>>>> hour week, you may be looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even
>>>> with everyone else. I'm a slow reader. I only read about 130
>>>> words per minute print, whereas a
>>>>
>>> normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>>
>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.
>>>> So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing
>>>> catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new stuff. I
>>>> like the challenges and the problems I solve, but it would be so
>>>> much easier if I could read as fast as everyone else and take less
time.
>>>> However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a
>>>> novel than it already is, I'll stop there. Does that help?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>>> Khan
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> @Jim
>>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to
>>>> teach semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question
>>>> is, I am currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in
>>>> CS, it will take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time.
>>>> Is that actually worth it in that situation?
>>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you
>>>> cannot make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or
>>>>
>>> something like that.
>>
>>>
>>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the
>>>> other one about working in a large company help desk environment,
>>>> would be difficult to secure as I have no tech support experience,
>>>> so most companies will probably not hire.
>>>>
>>>> What specific steps do you think I can take on how to get started
>>>> on learning programming. I am currently goign through the free
>>>> stanford online course called programming methodology, a very basic
>>>> intro to
>>>>
>>> programming.
>>
>>>
>>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open
>>>> Source projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good
>>>> way to start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a
>>>> BS and yes my ultimate goal is to land a job as an entry level
>>>> programmer, just to get my foot in the door and of course, I will
>>>> keep learning as tiem
>>>>
>>> goes on.
>>
>>>
>>>> @John
>>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get
>>>> you in.
>>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years
>>>> until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get
>>>> into
>>>>
>>> a field.
>>
>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to
>>>> land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non
>>>> profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to start
>>>> learning and / or gaining epxerience?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager
>>>>> and he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are
>>>>> wasting your and the company's time even applying if your b.s
>>>>> degree is in
>>>>>
>>>> something else.
>>>>
>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>>> relevant
>>>>>
>>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be
>>>>>> true and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as
>>>>>> a person working competitively in the field
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret
>>>>>> your messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is
>>>>>> how people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>>>>>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a
>>>>>> project gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience
>>>>>> and bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org
>>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming. Therefore,
>>>>>> take your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.
>>>>>> This will be difficult without some formal training, so look for
>>>>>> open source projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot
about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far. You'll
>>>>>>> learn a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your
>>>>>>> own than you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.
>>>>>>> You sap all the fun out of computers. Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>>>> science in order to program. I didn't finish mine, and know
>>>>>>>> many other people who are coders, designers, product managers,
>>>>>>>> and even architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative
>>>>>>>> way to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a
>>>>>>>> flavor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/****175065/inside-the-app-economy-***
>>>>>>>> *<http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.**cultofmac.com/175065/inside-**
>>>>>>> the-app-econom<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-ec
>>>>>>> onom>
>>>>>>> y-
>>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/****>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone
>>>>>>>> and android will take more time for a blind person. This is
>>>>>>>> because they'll need to use statement based configuration
>>>>>>>> language to layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> layout tools.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming
>>>>>>>> language is not why people go for CS degrees. There's a lot to
>>>>>>>> be learned about how to do proper user experience designs, how
>>>>>>>> to design and write code that is easier to debug and free of
>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bug types, etc.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and
>>>>>>>> put it in the app store and not market it. It's very important
>>>>>>>> to think about who you want to download your app and what
>>>>>>>> they'll pay for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out
>>>>>>>> your code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if
>>>>>>>> any bugs are found.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>>>>> expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>>>>> like computers and want to be a computer programmer." It
>>>>>>>> implies that you can simply do a bit of self study and then
>>>>>>>> start coding up app
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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--
Zeeshan Khan
ToiBooks
www.toibooks.com
http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks
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