[nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
Tami Jarvis
tami at poodlemutt.com
Fri Feb 22 22:22:35 UTC 2013
Mike,
That's exactly the set of books I was talking about. I couldn't remember
the author's name, so thanks for reminding me. I want to get another set
of her books, as soon as I have money to spend on books. /smile/
Sounds like I should have looked at what I was saying about the pros and
cons of learning braille... I apologize big time if I made it sound like
I was somehow advocating *against* learning braille. /shudder/
I was thinking about the very, very small minority for whom braille
doesn't provide enough speed/comprehension boost to justify a big time
expenditure learning it as a new skill and then getting up to speed.
Odd, I'm usually arguing pro braille with folks who will insist on
telling me I don't need to learn that and shouldn't be wasting my
time... For me, there's no question I need braille enough to have
learned it and to keep pushing the speed and my fluency in the
higher-order technical codes. Most people think this is a perfectly
sensible and natural thing for someone like me to be doing. But I've
slipped up and mention braille a couple of times in passing and been
totally attacked from surprising quarters. So I don't get it!
I also understand where you're coming from about the dangers of
continuing to use vision when it's not up to snuff, since I still have
just enough yet to catch myself in that instead of building better
habits in using the braille display... Guilty as charged! You would
think the headaches would break me of that evil habit, but... Even when
I'm just doing it at home because I'm lazy, it slows me down, so I keep
working myself. Sigh.
Tami
On 02/22/2013 01:09 PM, Mike Jolls wrote:
> Tami
>
> A couple of comments.
>
> The Braille Basics you mentioned ... was that written by Jolene Boshart? If
> so, I have a copy of her books. She works in Nebraska at a company that
> sells adaptive technology and I think also does custom brailling jobs.
>
> I wanted to comment on your reply when You said ... "if you have stable and
> usable vision, don't bother with Braille, but learn other things". I won't
> disagree at all about learning other things. You need to do that in any
> career. But I'm going to have to disagree to a point on that comment. I'm
> going to reiterate ... even if you can read print and can work at the
> computer monitor, you should really stop and think about how you do things
> if your vision is significantly below the normal reading rate of 250 words
> per minute.
>
> In my own case, my vision limits me to read at 130 words per minute. So I
> read about 1/2 the rate of a normal person. Or, you could say it takes me
> twice as long to read something. I used to think ... "I'm a slow reader,
> but I can read print .. I"M OK". But I've learned over the past 35 years in
> my career that my vision has put my career in the toilet. Can I read print?
> Sure. But I can't do it as fast as a normal person. I've been told many
> times ... "We need to get you more productive". After awhile, you read
> between the lines and realize what they're really saying is .. "You're too
> slow". I've even been told .. "I can't send you to training... you wouldn't
> be able to keep up". And when the managers develop this sort of opinion, it
> costs you in promotions, salary, etc... In the end, the people at work are
> really saying ... "your disability is getting in the way and you're too
> slow. They can't come out and say that or else they get a lawsuit slapped
> on them. All I can say is that you have to judge your methods by the
> results they produce. I know for me, I have to be able to read print to
> survive in my environment. But I have to try and use Braille so I can try
> and compensate for my slow reading rate where possible. Otherwise, I know
> what the results will be.
>
> That is why I said you need to take a cold, hard, objective measure of your
> reading rate. If you find it's where mine is, you REALLY need to find
> another method that doesn't use your vision. You may be setting yourself up
> for failure if you continue to use a method that doesn't serve you well.
>
> I read once in a book on advanced computer science that in order to make a
> process more efficient, you had to eliminate the part in the process that
> was slowing you down. If you didn't do that, you would always be subject to
> the limitation that this weakest part in the process placed upon you. In my
> case, that limitation is my vision. No matter how hard I try, my vision
> will only allow me to go at a maximum rate. I have enough years of
> experience to know what happens when I use my vision on a daily basis. I
> don't get as much done as the next guy and I end up losing out. To really
> improve beyond the limit my vision imposes on me, I am convinced that
> totally removing my vision from the process ... if that's possible ... is
> what is necessary, and then replacing it with a different method which is
> superior.
>
> I will say, however, that Braille is not perfect. It's great for reading
> straight text. It's lousy for working with diagrams. But if you mostly
> deal with straight text, say that was 80% of your work, then it could help
> you perform at a faster rate at least in that 80%. That is, if your vision
> is slowing you down. And, the improvement you gain will be dependent on how
> efficient of a Braille reader you can become. I do know that some people
> read Braille at 200 words per minute. I haven't achieved that rate yet but
> I'm working toward that.
>
> The reason I write all of this is because I do NOT want the next guy to have
> to suffer and go through what I've experienced. If my experience can help
> somebody realize what they're up against and can motivate them to at least
> look at Braille or alternate methods that will help them compete in today's
> IT world which is all about getting things done yesterday, then my life
> experience has not been for nothing.
>
> So, take that cold hard look. Think about how your career has gone. If
> you're happy with your results then great. If not, maybe Braille is
> something you need to learn to help your cause.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 12:42 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>
> Mike,
>
> That's a great discussion of the ins and outs when it comes to whether to
> braille or not to braille. /smile/
>
> The only thing I can add based on my own experience is that if your vision
> loss is progressive, it's an excellent idea to learn nonvisual techniques as
> much as possible even while you can use vision. That way, in theory anyway,
> you're less likely to have to drop everything when it turns out you can't
> read any more. Or, at least, the transition is likely to be smoother. Unless
> you make a huge mistake like I did... But that's another story. Where is
> that dratted time machine?
>
> I also did find in the few years I had leading up to that disaster that
> learning everything I could while working butt off to advance my career
> where I could left little time to turn to braille on top of that... I did
> some of the Hadley course but wanted something else and at the time couldn't
> find out the information I wanted/needed... But now with all the lists where
> you can just ask about anything, you don't have to wait on a VR agency that
> thinks it's weird for a blind person to want to find out about learning
> braille while they're still working. Sigh.
>
> The text I really loved was Braille Basics, which is hard to find to
> purchase. I have some info tucked somewhere, and you can also ask around
> since a few VR agencies use it. I found it to be really great for just
> sitting down and going through because it leads the learning progress quite
> naturally. At least for the way I learn. Others like the Hadley course
> because of the way they learn for the reasons I wanted something else.
>
> Point being, if you have limited but stable vision and don't need braille,
> then I agree you don't need to fuss it. Your time and effort learning other
> things to improve your options will get you further. But I do think a hard
> look at the cost-benefit analysis there is really key, both for time spent
> learning then getting really good at using braille and for the cost of
> equipment. Ouch!
>
> Then again, that $3k you mention was $6k for less functionality not that
> long ago. Makes it seem almost cheap, doesn't it? Or not... /grin/
>
> Tami
>
> On 02/22/2013 06:05 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>> Being a partially sighted person (legally blind like you) and a
>> Braille reader myself, I'll weigh in on this. Others can comment too.
>>
>> Whether using Braille ... or a Braille display ... might be useful to
>> you really depends on how quickly and easily you can read and absorb
>> printed material. According to studies I have read, a normal reading
>> speed for a normally sighted person is about 250 words per minute.
>> The question you have to answer is "how fast do I read in
>> comparison?". If you can read print at a normally sighted person's
>> rate, and you don't have any difficulty reading the normal sized
>> print, then there's no need to entertain the idea of purchasing a
>> Braille display or using any alternate method. You can therefore
> disregard the rest of my response if you fall into this category.
>>
>> If however, due to your blindness, your reading rate is slower than a
>> normally sighted person, then an alternate method such as Braille
>> might be useful for you. So then the question is not so much ...
>> "should I purchase a Braille display?" ... but rather ... "do I read
>> at a rate close enough to the standard such that I don't need to adopt
>> any alternate method or purchase any technology to do that?". If your
>> print reading rate is significantly below the normal rate, then
>> learning Braille would allow you to read at a rate that is not
>> impacted by your vision. And if the Braille rate is faster than what
>> your vision permits, then you can see that Braille would be a faster
>> method and could give you obvious advantages. In that case, the Braille
> display might be something you'd want to consider.
>>
>> So the need to learn Braille, or getting a Braille display, really
>> depends on whether and how easily you can read print at a normal rate.
>> And, if there's any impact to you if you exclusively read print. Does
>> reading print frustrate you because you take longer to read pleasure
>> material? Does reading print impact your performance at work? Does
>> it impact your ability to get promotions or do what you want
>> professionally? If there are no negative results from continuing to
>> use your vision and reading print, then I don't see a need to learn
>> Braille or get a device such as a Braille display. If however,
>> reading print is slower and has impact to you, pursuing Braille could be a
> good thing.
>>
>> Now here are some things about Braille that might be interesting to you
> ...
>>
>> 1. A Braille display is used by people that already know Braille. So
>> yes, you'd have to learn it first to be able to use and benefit from a
>> Braille display.
>> 2. Braille takes awhile to learn. It took me about 9 months as a
>> working person (studying it in my spare time) to learn it.
>> 3. There are a couple of Braille codes. To be able to use it in all
>> situations, you need to learn them both.
>> 4. Braille displays are expensive. The cost is determined by the
>> number of characters the device can render. A 40 character display
>> I'm considering is about $3000. There are 80 character models that run
> around $6000.
>>
>> I could go into my own personal experiences with print and Braille,
>> but that's not the question you asked. Your question was more about
>> .. "I read print. Should I consider a Braille display?". I hope what
>> I've said helps answer the question.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>> Khan
>> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:26 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>
>> So I am guessing a braille display only works for those who are
>> familiar with braille and not for those who haven't learned it? In my
>> case, I am legally blind but I can still read screens, so would bookshare
> suffice?
>>
>> -Zeeshan
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Using the material, even if it's not specifically formatted for
>>> braille is getting easier and easier because of open source braille
>>> translation software like BRLTTY, liblouis and others. And, of
>>> course, if you can use speech well with that sort of material, that's
>>> also easy. Well, depending on how you want to define easy.
>>>
>>> For self-study at home, that means you need a braille display there
>>> to read straight off the web or for electronic books. I was fortunate
>>> to get an older, basic one I could actually afford, which has really
> helped.
>>> Although I am a bad girl and use it for pleasure reading to the
>>> neglect of using it for study. Must develop better habits! /lol/
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/21/2013 07:57 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>>
>>>> I won't argue that learning things off the web has certainly changed
>>>> the way we learn. There are those sites that teach different
>>>> subjects and they provide complete information. I suppose you just
>>>> have to look out there on the web and see if you find what you need.
>>>> If the web suffices, then great.
>>>> If not, and you really need the "whole 9 yards", you may have to get
>>>> a book, or subscribe to a service that provides the book in
>>>> electronic format. If the latter, then this opens up the question,
>>>> can you use the material as the service provides it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Cc: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>>>
>>>> I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days. If
>>>> I were going to learn SQL today, I would go find a website that
>>>> teaches it, or is this not an option in your case?
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mike.
>>>>> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly these
> days.
>>>>>
>>>> I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
>>>>
>>>>> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from
>>>>> Bookshare as a
>>>>>
>>>> Daisy file, then opened the html portion. It worked well. I could
>>>> read the code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws up to
>>>> the max speed I could understand for the text parts.
>>>>
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>>>>> availability of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.
>>>>>> I'm sighted, so if I have to read print, I can do it. But as I
>>>>>> said, I'm a slow reader, and that's bad news. It takes forever to
>>>>>> read something and in a competitive world, you often finish last
>>>>>> and the other guy gets the job or the perks or the promotion when
>>>>>> the company finds out you can't go as fast. But at least I can do
>>>>>> it if I have to. But what does the totally blind person do that
>>>>>> is trying to break into programming? How do they keep up? And
>>>>>> can they get the books in accessible format? In Braille? Braille
>>>>>> is expensive, and not everything is available in hard-copy Braille.
>>>>>> And, braille is on the
>>>>>>
>>>>> decline, or so they say.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible
>>>>>> format any time soon. They may figure ... "hey, there's talking
>>>>>> books - let them do it
>>>>>> - they know what the blind person needs". And then perhaps for
>>>>>> some publishers they just don't care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do think the answer is Braille. I learned in a course I took
>>>>>> about making software more efficient (or your process) you have to
>>>>>> eliminate the link in the chain that slows you down. You can't go
>>>>>> any faster than what is limiting you. So if your eyesight is the
>>>>>> weakest link, you need to remove the need to use vision to read.
>>>>>> And that means Braille. And if Braille was available, that would
>>>>>> solve the problem of making the material available for the totally
>>>>>> blind, as well as removing speed barriers that bad vision would
>>>>>> impose for
>>>>>>
>>>>> partially sighted people.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as
>>>>>> the iPad that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a
>>>>>> wireless Braille Display. Then, a book that you can download to
>>>>>> the iPad SHOULD BE (notice I say SHOULD) accessible through the
>>>>>> Braille display. I haven't tried this yet myself. I'm a bit
>>>>>> gun-shy spending $3000 for a Braille display to connect to my iPad
>>>>>> with the thought that I might be wrong. That's a big investment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.
>>>>>> How do we get the material in accessible form so we can get the
>>>>>> same material that our sighted counterparts are reading and get it
>>>>>> at the same time so that we can learn what we need?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>>>>> Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been
>>>>>> in programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java
>>>>>> certification examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have
>>>>>> been there for
>>>>>> 39
>>>>>>
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three
>>>>>> years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been
>>>>>> great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with everyone. New
>>>>>> hires are required to have this certification. The preparation is
>>>>>> exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java Script, CSS, and
>>>>>> of course HTML. If I were applying for a new position I would not
>>>>>> even qualify. The amount of constant study is incredible. I don't
>>>>>> mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this with your
>>>>>> eyes wide open. The amount of extra work required is growing each
> year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35
>>>>>> years - something I understand is rather unique these days. As a
>>>>>> result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that every IT
>>>>>> firm is looking for. I can share what our company expects
>>>>>> developers to know, and offer some advice on what a person should
>>>>>> do to prepare for
>>>>>>
>>>>> a programming job.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>>>>> Our company is all about web technology. A few years back all of
>>>>>> our systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they
>>>>>> are re-writing everything using web technology. Some of the
>>>>>> technologies you would want to know (and this list is not
>>>>>> exhaustive) are HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/**Servlets/Java Server
>>>>>> Pages (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat. Every technology I have
>>>>>> mentioned here is used to develop web applications.
>>>>>> HTML/Javascript is used to develop the user interface that runs in
>>>>>> the browser on the client workstation, and Java/Servlets/Java
>>>>>> Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level. If you want to
>>>>>> understand how web applications work from the client browser to
>>>>>> the back-end server, learning all these technologies is a must.
>>>>>> The downside is that there is a significant investment of time.
>>>>>> You're looking at
>>>>>> 6 months at least, and probably a
>>>>>>
>>>>> year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming Today's systems are generally
>>>>>> written using an object oriented approach.
>>>>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language
>>>>>> that is architected with OO in mind. Our shop uses Java for most
>>>>>> programming work and it does OO pretty well. That would be a good
>>>>>> first choice. C++ is another OO language, although our shop
>>>>>> doesn't use
>>>>>>
>>>>> that as heavily as Java.
>>>>
>>>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>>>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs. I'd recommend Eclipse.
>>>>>> It's free, just like Java. That's one of the big reasons our
>>>>>> company went with Java and Eclipse. They are mature technologies
>>>>>> and they're free. You can download them. You'll also need a good
>>>>>> book on Java that discusses many of the technologies I've
>>>>>> mentioned above. The Deitel and Deitel series on Java How to
>>>>>> Program is a good starting book. It gives you a fairly thorough
>>>>>> treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC
>>>>>> (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data Structures. It doesn't deal with
>>>>>> HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can
>> get that elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Experience
>>>>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not
>>>>>> sure if you could do that at our company. Perhaps other companies
>>>>>> are different. Our company REQUIRES at least a degree in
>>>>>> something, and I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who want to
>>>>>> get a job in IT as programmers. I would suggest calling HR
>>>>>> departments to find out a consensus. If you don't have a CS
>>>>>> degree, then experience is your next best bet. And I don't mean
>>>>>> getting the Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then
>>>>>> saying "I'm a programmer". I mean, write real applications for
>>>>>> your non-profits that give you experience in real-world problems
>>>>>> so that when you get to the company you REALLY
>>>>>>
>>>>> want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. Expect the technology to change And don't forget, this is just
>>>>>> a starting point, and the technology will change on you within 2-5
>>>>>> years. Even after you learn all of this, expect new technologies
>>>>>> to come along which will require you to learn some or all of these
>>>>>> all over again, or learn updates to these technologies. If, due
>>>>>> to vision issues, you're not the fastest guy on the block, expect
>>>>>> to have to learn the new technologies on your own time, at home.
>>>>>> So instead of working a 40 hour week, you may be looking at a 60
>>>>>> hour week just to stay even with everyone else. I'm a slow
>>>>>> reader. I only read about 130 words per minute print, whereas a
>>>>>>
>>>>> normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.
>>>>>> So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always
>>>>>> playing catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new
>>>>>> stuff. I like the challenges and the problems I solve, but it
>>>>>> would be so much easier if I could read as fast as everyone else
>>>>>> and take less
>> time.
>>>>>> However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of
>>>>>> a novel than it already is, I'll stop there. Does that help?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>>>>> Khan
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @Jim
>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to
>>>>>> teach semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question
>>>>>> is, I am currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS
>>>>>> in CS, it will take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time.
>>>>>> Is that actually worth it in that situation?
>>>>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>>>>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something
>>>>>> you cannot make a living out of unless you have the next angry
>>>>>> birds or
>>>>>>
>>>>> something like that.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the
>>>>>> other one about working in a large company help desk environment,
>>>>>> would be difficult to secure as I have no tech support experience,
>>>>>> so most companies will probably not hire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What specific steps do you think I can take on how to get started
>>>>>> on learning programming. I am currently goign through the free
>>>>>> stanford online course called programming methodology, a very
>>>>>> basic intro to
>>>>>>
>>>>> programming.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open
>>>>>> Source projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good
>>>>>> way to start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a
>>>>>> BS and yes my ultimate goal is to land a job as an entry level
>>>>>> programmer, just to get my foot in the door and of course, I will
>>>>>> keep learning as tiem
>>>>>>
>>>>> goes on.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> @John
>>>>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get
>>>>>> you in.
>>>>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4
>>>>>> years until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too long
>>>>>> to get into
>>>>>>
>>>>> a field.
>>>>
>>>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to
>>>>>> land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non
>>>>>> profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to start
>>>>>> learning and / or gaining epxerience?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>
>>>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager
>>>>>>> and he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are
>>>>>>> wasting your and the company's time even applying if your b.s
>>>>>>> degree is in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be
>>>>>>>> true and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take
>>>>>>>> as a person working competitively in the field
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret
>>>>>>>> your messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This
>>>>>>>> is how people get to be programmers. This is why things may not
>>>>>>>> be accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a
>>>>>>>> project gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>>>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience
>>>>>>>> and bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> understand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org
>>>>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming. Therefore,
>>>>>>>> take your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.
>>>>>>>> This will be difficult without some formal training, so look for
>>>>>>>> open source projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a
>>>>>>>> lot
>> about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.
>>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far. You'll
>>>>>>>>> learn a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your
>>>>>>>>> own than you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.
>>>>>>>>> You sap all the fun out of computers. Boredom is the kiss of
> death.
>>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>>>>>> science in order to program. I didn't finish mine, and know
>>>>>>>>>> many other people who are coders, designers, product managers,
>>>>>>>>>> and even architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative
>>>>>>>>>> way to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a
>>>>>>>>>> flavor
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/****175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>> *<http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.**cultofmac.com/175065/inside-**
>>>>>>>>> the-app-econom<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-e
>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>> onom>
>>>>>>>>> y-
>>>>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/****>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> and android will take more time for a blind person. This is
>>>>>>>>>> because they'll need to use statement based configuration
>>>>>>>>>> language to layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use
>>>>>>>>>> GUI
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> layout tools.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming
>>>>>>>>>> language is not why people go for CS degrees. There's a lot
>>>>>>>>>> to be learned about how to do proper user experience designs,
>>>>>>>>>> how to design and write code that is easier to debug and free
>>>>>>>>>> of common
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bug types, etc.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and
>>>>>>>>>> put it in the app store and not market it. It's very
>>>>>>>>>> important to think about who you want to download your app and
>>>>>>>>>> what they'll pay for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out
>>>>>>>>>> your code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if
>>>>>>>>>> any bugs are found.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and
>>>>>>>>>> reasonable expectations about how you'll make money at this
> venture.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>>>>>>> like computers and want to be a computer programmer." It
>>>>>>>>>> implies that you can simply do a bit of self study and then
>>>>>>>>>> start coding up app
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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