[nfbcs] Braille (was: Accessible CS books)
John G. Heim
jheim at math.wisc.edu
Mon Feb 25 16:41:40 UTC 2013
Here's a tip. To label cables or other small items, save the plastic
from a milk carton or other food item. I personally prefer quart, round
plastic milk bottles. When you need to label a cable, punch braille
into the plastic, cut off the strip with the braille and leave an inch
or two extra on one end. Cut a slit lengthwise into the part with no
braille. Slide it over your cable. You can also loop the braille lable
over itself if the cable is large. Or you can use masking tape attach
the label the cable.
Another real quick way to label a cable is to use masking tape. Fold the
masking tape over itself on the cable and then punch braille into it.
This is quick and easy and it works pretty well. But I have found that
the braille gets harder and harder to read as the tape ages. The plastic
labels never wear out.
Actually, I label my clothes with braille punched into plastic strips
too. If you use the right plastic, you can launder your clothes a
hundred times and the labels never wear out.
A lot of people who don't know braille essentially re-invent it in order
to label stuff. They develop some kind of elaborate system to label
their clothes, cables, DVDs, or cans in their pantry. I knew a guy who
was tying string with knots to his clothes to identify them, "one knot
black, two for blue." Well, what if you buy some khakis? What if
somebody gives you a red shirt? You gonna just throw it away? People who
don't know braille have various ways of dealing with this stuff. Throw
it away. Make their system more elaborate. I'm like, "Dude, just learn
braille well enough to label stuff."
On 2/25/2013 8:14 AM, Gary Wunder wrote:
> Hello, John. I really appreciate your open-mindedness. I think there are
> times when it is all too easy for us to be unnecessarily rigid. I do find
> myself wanting to ask people who protest against Braille whether they would
> make the same protest against print and opt for audio as a substitute. I
> use audio all the time, and for some functions I find it outperforming
> braille. I prefer audio when I'm pacing; I prefer audio when I have a lot
> of email to get through; I prefer audio when I'm taking a bath; but I can't
> say that I prefer audio when I'm trying to look at the syntax of a
> complicated line of computer code or when I'm trying to edit a document.
>
> Again, I applaud your open-mindedness, your willingness to learn braille,
> and your can-do attitude. It is very uplifting to have on the list.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 7:11 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>
> Tammy, I don't think you need to apologize for having an opinion.
>
> Personally, I know one heck of a lot of blind people who think it is a huge
> waste of time learning braille. I went mostly blind around 35 years of age
> and learned braille at 40. I think it was worth it. But I will admit I have
> had a hard time making the case to younger people. Honestly, I think they
> have a legitimate opinion. I don't happen to agree with it. I think that if
> you don't learn braille, you are setting yourself up for failure. But I
> can't prove that. And it may be that if you are the kind of person who takes
> the time to learn braille, youre the type of person who has what it takes to
> succeed as a blind person.
>
> Maybe times are changing. Maybe braille is obsolete. I dunno.
>
>
> On Feb 22, 2013, at 4:22 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> That's exactly the set of books I was talking about. I couldn't
>> remember the author's name, so thanks for reminding me. I want to get
>> another set of her books, as soon as I have money to spend on books.
>> /smile/
>>
>> Sounds like I should have looked at what I was saying about the pros
>> and cons of learning braille... I apologize big time if I made it
>> sound like I was somehow advocating *against* learning braille.
>> /shudder/
>>
>> I was thinking about the very, very small minority for whom braille
> doesn't provide enough speed/comprehension boost to justify a big time
> expenditure learning it as a new skill and then getting up to speed.
>>
>> Odd, I'm usually arguing pro braille with folks who will insist on telling
> me I don't need to learn that and shouldn't be wasting my time... For me,
> there's no question I need braille enough to have learned it and to keep
> pushing the speed and my fluency in the higher-order technical codes. Most
> people think this is a perfectly sensible and natural thing for someone like
> me to be doing. But I've slipped up and mention braille a couple of times in
> passing and been totally attacked from surprising quarters. So I don't get
> it!
>>
>> I also understand where you're coming from about the dangers of continuing
> to use vision when it's not up to snuff, since I still have just enough yet
> to catch myself in that instead of building better habits in using the
> braille display... Guilty as charged! You would think the headaches would
> break me of that evil habit, but... Even when I'm just doing it at home
> because I'm lazy, it slows me down, so I keep working myself. Sigh.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 02/22/2013 01:09 PM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> A couple of comments.
>>>
>>> The Braille Basics you mentioned ... was that written by Jolene
>>> Boshart? If so, I have a copy of her books. She works in Nebraska
>>> at a company that sells adaptive technology and I think also does custom
> brailling jobs.
>>>
>>> I wanted to comment on your reply when You said ... "if you have
>>> stable and usable vision, don't bother with Braille, but learn other
>>> things". I won't disagree at all about learning other things. You
>>> need to do that in any career. But I'm going to have to disagree to
>>> a point on that comment. I'm going to reiterate ... even if you can
>>> read print and can work at the computer monitor, you should really
>>> stop and think about how you do things if your vision is
>>> significantly below the normal reading rate of 250 words per minute.
>>>
>>> In my own case, my vision limits me to read at 130 words per minute.
>>> So I read about 1/2 the rate of a normal person. Or, you could say
>>> it takes me twice as long to read something. I used to think ...
>>> "I'm a slow reader, but I can read print .. I"M OK". But I've
>>> learned over the past 35 years in my career that my vision has put my
> career in the toilet. Can I read print?
>>> Sure. But I can't do it as fast as a normal person. I've been told
>>> many times ... "We need to get you more productive". After awhile,
>>> you read between the lines and realize what they're really saying is
>>> .. "You're too slow". I've even been told .. "I can't send you to
>>> training... you wouldn't be able to keep up". And when the managers
> develop this sort of opinion, it
>>> costs you in promotions, salary, etc... In the end, the people at work
> are
>>> really saying ... "your disability is getting in the way and you're
>>> too slow. They can't come out and say that or else they get a
>>> lawsuit slapped on them. All I can say is that you have to judge
>>> your methods by the results they produce. I know for me, I have to
>>> be able to read print to survive in my environment. But I have to
>>> try and use Braille so I can try and compensate for my slow reading
>>> rate where possible. Otherwise, I know what the results will be.
>>>
>>> That is why I said you need to take a cold, hard, objective measure
>>> of your reading rate. If you find it's where mine is, you REALLY
>>> need to find another method that doesn't use your vision. You may be
>>> setting yourself up for failure if you continue to use a method that
> doesn't serve you well.
>>>
>>> I read once in a book on advanced computer science that in order to
>>> make a process more efficient, you had to eliminate the part in the
>>> process that was slowing you down. If you didn't do that, you would
>>> always be subject to the limitation that this weakest part in the
>>> process placed upon you. In my case, that limitation is my vision.
>>> No matter how hard I try, my vision will only allow me to go at a
>>> maximum rate. I have enough years of experience to know what happens
>>> when I use my vision on a daily basis. I don't get as much done as
>>> the next guy and I end up losing out. To really improve beyond the
>>> limit my vision imposes on me, I am convinced that totally removing
>>> my vision from the process ... if that's possible ... is what is
>>> necessary, and then replacing it with a different method which is
> superior.
>>>
>>> I will say, however, that Braille is not perfect. It's great for
>>> reading straight text. It's lousy for working with diagrams. But if
>>> you mostly deal with straight text, say that was 80% of your work,
>>> then it could help you perform at a faster rate at least in that 80%.
>>> That is, if your vision is slowing you down. And, the improvement
>>> you gain will be dependent on how efficient of a Braille reader you
>>> can become. I do know that some people read Braille at 200 words per
>>> minute. I haven't achieved that rate yet but I'm working toward that.
>>>
>>> The reason I write all of this is because I do NOT want the next guy
>>> to have to suffer and go through what I've experienced. If my
>>> experience can help somebody realize what they're up against and can
>>> motivate them to at least look at Braille or alternate methods that
>>> will help them compete in today's IT world which is all about getting
>>> things done yesterday, then my life experience has not been for nothing.
>>>
>>> So, take that cold hard look. Think about how your career has gone.
>>> If you're happy with your results then great. If not, maybe Braille
>>> is something you need to learn to help your cause.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami
>>> Jarvis
>>> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 12:42 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> That's a great discussion of the ins and outs when it comes to
>>> whether to braille or not to braille. /smile/
>>>
>>> The only thing I can add based on my own experience is that if your
>>> vision loss is progressive, it's an excellent idea to learn nonvisual
>>> techniques as much as possible even while you can use vision. That
>>> way, in theory anyway, you're less likely to have to drop everything
>>> when it turns out you can't read any more. Or, at least, the
>>> transition is likely to be smoother. Unless you make a huge mistake
>>> like I did... But that's another story. Where is that dratted time
> machine?
>>>
>>> I also did find in the few years I had leading up to that disaster
>>> that learning everything I could while working butt off to advance my
>>> career where I could left little time to turn to braille on top of
>>> that... I did some of the Hadley course but wanted something else and
>>> at the time couldn't find out the information I wanted/needed... But
>>> now with all the lists where you can just ask about anything, you
>>> don't have to wait on a VR agency that thinks it's weird for a blind
>>> person to want to find out about learning braille while they're still
> working. Sigh.
>>>
>>> The text I really loved was Braille Basics, which is hard to find to
>>> purchase. I have some info tucked somewhere, and you can also ask
>>> around since a few VR agencies use it. I found it to be really great
>>> for just sitting down and going through because it leads the learning
>>> progress quite naturally. At least for the way I learn. Others like
>>> the Hadley course because of the way they learn for the reasons I wanted
> something else.
>>>
>>> Point being, if you have limited but stable vision and don't need
>>> braille, then I agree you don't need to fuss it. Your time and effort
>>> learning other things to improve your options will get you further.
>>> But I do think a hard look at the cost-benefit analysis there is
>>> really key, both for time spent learning then getting really good at
>>> using braille and for the cost of equipment. Ouch!
>>>
>>> Then again, that $3k you mention was $6k for less functionality not
>>> that long ago. Makes it seem almost cheap, doesn't it? Or not...
>>> /grin/
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 02/22/2013 06:05 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>>> Being a partially sighted person (legally blind like you) and a
>>>> Braille reader myself, I'll weigh in on this. Others can comment too.
>>>>
>>>> Whether using Braille ... or a Braille display ... might be useful
>>>> to you really depends on how quickly and easily you can read and
>>>> absorb printed material. According to studies I have read, a normal
>>>> reading speed for a normally sighted person is about 250 words per
> minute.
>>>> The question you have to answer is "how fast do I read in
>>>> comparison?". If you can read print at a normally sighted person's
>>>> rate, and you don't have any difficulty reading the normal sized
>>>> print, then there's no need to entertain the idea of purchasing a
>>>> Braille display or using any alternate method. You can therefore
>>> disregard the rest of my response if you fall into this category.
>>>>
>>>> If however, due to your blindness, your reading rate is slower than
>>>> a normally sighted person, then an alternate method such as Braille
>>>> might be useful for you. So then the question is not so much ...
>>>> "should I purchase a Braille display?" ... but rather ... "do I read
>>>> at a rate close enough to the standard such that I don't need to
>>>> adopt any alternate method or purchase any technology to do that?".
>>>> If your print reading rate is significantly below the normal rate,
>>>> then learning Braille would allow you to read at a rate that is not
>>>> impacted by your vision. And if the Braille rate is faster than
>>>> what your vision permits, then you can see that Braille would be a
>>>> faster method and could give you obvious advantages. In that case,
>>>> the Braille
>>> display might be something you'd want to consider.
>>>>
>>>> So the need to learn Braille, or getting a Braille display, really
>>>> depends on whether and how easily you can read print at a normal rate.
>>>> And, if there's any impact to you if you exclusively read print.
>>>> Does reading print frustrate you because you take longer to read
>>>> pleasure material? Does reading print impact your performance at
>>>> work? Does it impact your ability to get promotions or do what you
>>>> want professionally? If there are no negative results from
>>>> continuing to use your vision and reading print, then I don't see a
>>>> need to learn Braille or get a device such as a Braille display. If
>>>> however, reading print is slower and has impact to you, pursuing
>>>> Braille could be a
>>> good thing.
>>>>
>>>> Now here are some things about Braille that might be interesting to
>>>> you
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> 1. A Braille display is used by people that already know Braille.
>>>> So yes, you'd have to learn it first to be able to use and benefit
>>>> from a Braille display.
>>>> 2. Braille takes awhile to learn. It took me about 9 months as a
>>>> working person (studying it in my spare time) to learn it.
>>>> 3. There are a couple of Braille codes. To be able to use it in all
>>>> situations, you need to learn them both.
>>>> 4. Braille displays are expensive. The cost is determined by the
>>>> number of characters the device can render. A 40 character display
>>>> I'm considering is about $3000. There are 80 character models that
>>>> run
>>> around $6000.
>>>>
>>>> I could go into my own personal experiences with print and Braille,
>>>> but that's not the question you asked. Your question was more about
>>>> .. "I read print. Should I consider a Braille display?". I hope
>>>> what I've said helps answer the question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>>> Khan
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:26 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>>>
>>>> So I am guessing a braille display only works for those who are
>>>> familiar with braille and not for those who haven't learned it? In
>>>> my case, I am legally blind but I can still read screens, so would
>>>> bookshare
>>> suffice?
>>>>
>>>> -Zeeshan
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> Using the material, even if it's not specifically formatted for
>>>>> braille is getting easier and easier because of open source braille
>>>>> translation software like BRLTTY, liblouis and others. And, of
>>>>> course, if you can use speech well with that sort of material,
>>>>> that's also easy. Well, depending on how you want to define easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> For self-study at home, that means you need a braille display there
>>>>> to read straight off the web or for electronic books. I was
>>>>> fortunate to get an older, basic one I could actually afford, which
>>>>> has really
>>> helped.
>>>>> Although I am a bad girl and use it for pleasure reading to the
>>>>> neglect of using it for study. Must develop better habits! /lol/
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/21/2013 07:57 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I won't argue that learning things off the web has certainly
>>>>>> changed the way we learn. There are those sites that teach
>>>>>> different subjects and they provide complete information. I
>>>>>> suppose you just have to look out there on the web and see if you find
> what you need.
>>>>>> If the web suffices, then great.
>>>>>> If not, and you really need the "whole 9 yards", you may have to
>>>>>> get a book, or subscribe to a service that provides the book in
>>>>>> electronic format. If the latter, then this opens up the
>>>>>> question, can you use the material as the service provides it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessible CS books (was bs is bs)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also wonder how often one needs to resort to a book these days.
>>>>>> If I were going to learn SQL today, I would go find a website
>>>>>> that teaches it, or is this not an option in your case?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 7:03 AM, "Tracy Carcione"
>>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mike.
>>>>>>> Bookshare is getting a lot of books from publishers directly
>>>>>>> these
>>> days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have noticed some problems with their braille translator, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I needed to learn SQL, I got the recommended book from
>>>>>>> Bookshare as a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daisy file, then opened the html portion. It worked well. I
>>>>>> could read the code examples on my braille display, and move Jaws
>>>>>> up to the max speed I could understand for the text parts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Jolls" <majolls at cox.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:16 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>>>>>>> availability of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.
>>>>>>>> I'm sighted, so if I have to read print, I can do it. But as I
>>>>>>>> said, I'm a slow reader, and that's bad news. It takes forever
>>>>>>>> to read something and in a competitive world, you often finish
>>>>>>>> last and the other guy gets the job or the perks or the
>>>>>>>> promotion when the company finds out you can't go as fast. But
>>>>>>>> at least I can do it if I have to. But what does the totally
>>>>>>>> blind person do that is trying to break into programming? How
>>>>>>>> do they keep up? And can they get the books in accessible
>>>>>>>> format? In Braille? Braille is expensive, and not everything is
> available in hard-copy Braille.
>>>>>>>> And, braille is on the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> decline, or so they say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible
>>>>>>>> format any time soon. They may figure ... "hey, there's talking
>>>>>>>> books - let them do it
>>>>>>>> - they know what the blind person needs". And then perhaps for
>>>>>>>> some publishers they just don't care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do think the answer is Braille. I learned in a course I took
>>>>>>>> about making software more efficient (or your process) you have
>>>>>>>> to eliminate the link in the chain that slows you down. You
>>>>>>>> can't go any faster than what is limiting you. So if your
>>>>>>>> eyesight is the weakest link, you need to remove the need to use
> vision to read.
>>>>>>>> And that means Braille. And if Braille was available, that
>>>>>>>> would solve the problem of making the material available for the
>>>>>>>> totally blind, as well as removing speed barriers that bad
>>>>>>>> vision would impose for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> partially sighted people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such
>>>>>>>> as the iPad that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a
>>>>>>>> wireless Braille Display. Then, a book that you can download to
>>>>>>>> the iPad SHOULD BE (notice I say SHOULD) accessible through the
>>>>>>>> Braille display. I haven't tried this yet myself. I'm a bit
>>>>>>>> gun-shy spending $3000 for a Braille display to connect to my
>>>>>>>> iPad with the thought that I might be wrong. That's a big
> investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge.
>>>>>>>> How do we get the material in accessible form so we can get the
>>>>>>>> same material that our sighted counterparts are reading and get
>>>>>>>> it at the same time so that we can learn what we need?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>>>>>>> Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been
>>>>>>>> in programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java
>>>>>>>> certification examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I
>>>>>>>> have been there for
>>>>>>>> 39
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three
>>>>>>>> years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has
>>>>>>>> been great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with
>>>>>>>> everyone. New hires are required to have this certification. The
>>>>>>>> preparation is exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java
>>>>>>>> Script, CSS, and of course HTML. If I were applying for a new
>>>>>>>> position I would not even qualify. The amount of constant study
>>>>>>>> is incredible. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to
>>>>>>>> go into this with your eyes wide open. The amount of extra work
>>>>>>>> required is growing each
>>> year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last
>>>>>>>> 35 years - something I understand is rather unique these days.
>>>>>>>> As a result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that
>>>>>>>> every IT firm is looking for. I can share what our company
>>>>>>>> expects developers to know, and offer some advice on what a
>>>>>>>> person should do to prepare for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a programming job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>>>>>>> Our company is all about web technology. A few years back all
>>>>>>>> of our systems were built on the client/server architecture, but
>>>>>>>> they are re-writing everything using web technology. Some of
>>>>>>>> the technologies you would want to know (and this list is not
>>>>>>>> exhaustive) are HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/**Servlets/Java Server
>>>>>>>> Pages (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat. Every technology I have
>>>>>>>> mentioned here is used to develop web applications.
>>>>>>>> HTML/Javascript is used to develop the user interface that runs
>>>>>>>> in the browser on the client workstation, and Java/Servlets/Java
>>>>>>>> Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level. If you want to
>>>>>>>> understand how web applications work from the client browser to
>>>>>>>> the back-end server, learning all these technologies is a must.
>>>>>>>> The downside is that there is a significant investment of time.
>>>>>>>> You're looking at
>>>>>>>> 6 months at least, and probably a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming Today's systems are
>>>>>>>> generally written using an object oriented approach.
>>>>>>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any
>>>>>>>> language that is architected with OO in mind. Our shop uses
>>>>>>>> Java for most programming work and it does OO pretty well. That
>>>>>>>> would be a good first choice. C++ is another OO language,
>>>>>>>> although our shop doesn't use
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that as heavily as Java.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>>>>>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs. I'd recommend Eclipse.
>>>>>>>> It's free, just like Java. That's one of the big reasons our
>>>>>>>> company went with Java and Eclipse. They are mature
>>>>>>>> technologies and they're free. You can download them. You'll
>>>>>>>> also need a good book on Java that discusses many of the
>>>>>>>> technologies I've mentioned above. The Deitel and Deitel series
>>>>>>>> on Java How to Program is a good starting book. It gives you a
>>>>>>>> fairly thorough treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC
>>>>>>>> (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data Structures. It doesn't deal with
>>>>>>>> HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can
>>>> get that elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. Experience
>>>>>>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not
>>>>>>>> sure if you could do that at our company. Perhaps other
>>>>>>>> companies are different. Our company REQUIRES at least a degree
>>>>>>>> in something, and I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who
>>>>>>>> want to get a job in IT as programmers. I would suggest calling
>>>>>>>> HR departments to find out a consensus. If you don't have a CS
>>>>>>>> degree, then experience is your next best bet. And I don't mean
>>>>>>>> getting the Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then
>>>>>>>> saying "I'm a programmer". I mean, write real applications for
>>>>>>>> your non-profits that give you experience in real-world problems
>>>>>>>> so that when you get to the company you REALLY
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4. Expect the technology to change And don't forget, this is
>>>>>>>> just a starting point, and the technology will change on you
>>>>>>>> within 2-5 years. Even after you learn all of this, expect new
>>>>>>>> technologies to come along which will require you to learn some
>>>>>>>> or all of these all over again, or learn updates to these
>>>>>>>> technologies. If, due to vision issues, you're not the fastest
>>>>>>>> guy on the block, expect to have to learn the new technologies on
> your own time, at home.
>>>>>>>> So instead of working a 40 hour week, you may be looking at a 60
>>>>>>>> hour week just to stay even with everyone else. I'm a slow
>>>>>>>> reader. I only read about 130 words per minute print, whereas a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.
>>>>>>>> So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always
>>>>>>>> playing catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new
>>>>>>>> stuff. I like the challenges and the problems I solve, but it
>>>>>>>> would be so much easier if I could read as fast as everyone else
>>>>>>>> and take less
>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more
>>>>>>>> of a novel than it already is, I'll stop there. Does that help?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>>>>>>> Khan
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> @Jim
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to
>>>>>>>> teach semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my
>>>>>>>> question is, I am currently wokring and if i try to go back and
>>>>>>>> get my BS in CS, it will take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it
> part time.
>>>>>>>> Is that actually worth it in that situation?
>>>>>>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project,
>>>>>>>> kids storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is
>>>>>>>> something you cannot make a living out of unless you have the
>>>>>>>> next angry birds or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> something like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the
>>>>>>>> other one about working in a large company help desk
>>>>>>>> environment, would be difficult to secure as I have no tech
>>>>>>>> support experience, so most companies will probably not hire.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What specific steps do you think I can take on how to get
>>>>>>>> started on learning programming. I am currently goign through
>>>>>>>> the free stanford online course called programming methodology,
>>>>>>>> a very basic intro to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> programming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open
>>>>>>>> Source projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be
>>>>>>>> good way to start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I
>>>>>>>> can't do a BS and yes my ultimate goal is to land a job as an
>>>>>>>> entry level programmer, just to get my foot in the door and of
>>>>>>>> course, I will keep learning as tiem
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> goes on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> @John
>>>>>>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to
>>>>>>>> get you in.
>>>>>>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4
>>>>>>>> years until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too
>>>>>>>> long to get into
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non
>>>>>>>> profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to
>>>>>>>> start learning and / or gaining epxerience?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr
>>>>>>>>> manager and he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in
>>>>>>>>> iT, you are wasting your and the company's time even applying
>>>>>>>>> if your b.s degree is in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>>>>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>>>>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be
>>>>>>>>>> true and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take
>>>>>>>>>> as a person working competitively in the field
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret
>>>>>>>>>> your messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This
>>>>>>>>>> is how people get to be programmers. This is why things may
>>>>>>>>>> not be accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is
>>>>>>>>>> how a project gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if
>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the
>>>>>>>>>> patience and bringing the experience we need if we're to
>>>>>>>>>> really discuss and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> understand.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org
>>>>>>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.
>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, take your enjoyment of programming and build some
> experience.
>>>>>>>>>> This will be difficult without some formal training, so look
>>>>>>>>>> for open source projects, non-profits, or a niche that you
>>>>>>>>>> know a lot
>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.
>>>>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far.
>>>>>>>>>>> You'll learn a million times more by getting your hands dirty
>>>>>>>>>>> on your own than you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring
> lecture.
>>>>>>>>>>> You sap all the fun out of computers. Boredom is the kiss of
>>> death.
>>>>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer science in order to program. I didn't finish mine,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and know many other people who are coders, designers,
>>>>>>>>>>>> product managers, and even architects don't have a computer
> science degree.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to
>>>>>>>>>>>> a computer programming job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a
>>>>>>>>>>>> lucrative way to make a living. See articles like this one
>>>>>>>>>>>> for a bit a flavor
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/****175065/inside-the-app-economy-
>>>>>>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>> *<http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-*
>>>>>>>>>>>> *>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.**cultofmac.com/175065/inside-**
>>>>>>>>>>> the-app-econom<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app
>>>>>>>>>>> -e
>>>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>>>> onom>
>>>>>>>>>>> y-
>>>>>>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/****>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for
>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone and android will take more time for a blind person.
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is because they'll need to use statement based
>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration language to layout their app, whereas sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>> folks can use GUI
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> layout tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming
>>>>>>>>>>>> language is not why people go for CS degrees. There's a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be learned about how to do proper user experience
>>>>>>>>>>>> designs, how to design and write code that is easier to
>>>>>>>>>>>> debug and free of common
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> bug types, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app
>>>>>>>>>>>> and put it in the app store and not market it. It's very
>>>>>>>>>>>> important to think about who you want to download your app
>>>>>>>>>>>> and what they'll pay for
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out
>>>>>>>>>>>> your code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name
>>>>>>>>>>>> if any bugs are found.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable expectations about how you'll make money at this
>>> venture.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me
>>>>>>>>>>>> "I like computers and want to be a computer programmer." It
>>>>>>>>>>>> implies that you can simply do a bit of self study and then
>>>>>>>>>>>> start coding up app
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.
>>>>>> o rg/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**majolls%40cox.
>>>>>> net<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.
>>>>>> net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.
>>>>>> o rg/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%**
>>>>>> 40poodlemutt.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.or
>>>>>> g/
>>>>>> t
>>>>>> ami%40poodlemutt.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet
>>>>> .o
>>>>> r
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**zeek786%40gm
>>>>> ai
>>>>> l
>>>>> .com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40g
>>>>> ma
>>>>> i
>>>>> l.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.
>>> com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.e
>> du
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>
More information about the NFBCS
mailing list