[nfbcs] Telling employers about disability and question about work expectations

Thu Oct 2 14:49:05 UTC 2014

Hello, Mike. I don't think your work experience is unique. Seldom did I find
that I could get my job done in what was thought of as a normal work week.
Working extra hours became the norm, and bringing work home and doing things
on evenings and weekends was more common than not.

What gets difficult is when you are a salaried employee, expected to do
whatever it takes to get the job done, and the person making those
expectations isn't reasonable about what can be done. I had managers who
assumed that time available and work to be done were like elastic sweatpants
and could be stretched however they wished. I think that my work for the
University of Missouri hospitals and Clinics took longer because nothing was
designed to work well with a screen reader, any modifications I had to make
by developing macros or JAWS scripts had to be done on my own time or at
least not counted against the project on which I was working, and even
simple tasks such as taking a textual report, finding the columns of that
report, and getting Microsoft Excel to put that into a spreadsheet were
quite time-consuming compared with the speed at which my supervisor could do
the same thing.

Before I got my first programming job I went to a Veterans Administration
hospital to talk with one of their programmers. The man trying to sell me
the braille printer said that I have the pleasure of being in the company of
one of the most motivated people ever. He said that the blind fellow showing
me the printer and telling me about his job worked 10 to 12 hours a day. At
this point the blind employee told the embosser salesman that he did not
like to talk about the work hours he spent because he was not doing extra
work but was simply doing what he thought his sighted colleagues did during
their workday.

When I think of blindness as a nuisance, I think about the contrast that is
usually made and the suggestion that to be blind is a tragic condition. I
don't think that blindness is a tragedy. Whether nuisance is the right word
to categorize it I can't say, but I do know that, while it has made the hill
a steeper climb, it has not prevented me from climbing the hill and enjoying
the benefits that come from a paycheck, having an answer to the question
what do you do, having a reason to get up in the morning, and feeling pretty
good at night about what I've accomplished. I can't say that I have enjoyed
all the stress that goes along with being employed at a university and at a
software company that produced clinical systems, but I certainly prefer the
life's journey I have had to the sad calls I get as an NFB state President
from people who have never really considered employment an option. Sometimes
it is because they have accepted blindness as being so confining that they
had no choice but to stay home. Sometimes it is because they have looked at
the workaday world and just considered it too inconvenient. Sometimes they
have fooled themselves into believing that they are actively working on a
career when the reality is that they are still thinking about what they
would like to do with their life, and there is no immediate financial
pressure to start doing something and to worry about what you would
ultimately like to do some time in the future.

I think we have to be quite straight and telling people that employment can
be tough but that it is foolish to believe that life is easy for anyone. I
admire what you do, and, even with all of the problems that you detail, I
think you are better off for having traveled the road you have. I am sorry
for the accessibility challenges that our employers don't understand, the
argument about whether an accessibility problem is because of inadequacies
in a screen reader or the software we are being asked to use, and the
reluctance of employers to consider accessibility in their procurement. This
is one of the reasons I work long days to try to encourage the technical
competence of those of us who are blind and to evangelize among those who
develop and sell mainstream software. Thank you for doing what you do, and
thank you for admitting that sometimes it is just plain tough. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls via
nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 7:19 AM
To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Telling employers about disability and question about
work expectations

In my experience, the company values you if you can do for them what they
need to have done, and do it quickly.  Their favorite expression is ...
"well let's just 'knock this out' " ... meaning ... "get it done as quickly
as you can".  The person that can do that is valued more (from my
perception)than the person that takes longer.  From my work experience,
having good knowledge doesn't matter as much as getting it done fast.  I'm
currently working on converting an application from Visual Basic to Java and
the web.  The boss laid out a training schedule which was rather aggressive.
I know how fast I read, and this training was all reading.  I was going to
have problems with his schedule.  So I told him ... "this is an aggressive
schedule - I'll do the best I can but just be aware I may not be able to get
it done by the schedule you've set forth".  His response was ... "well if
you can't do it, we'll just get someone else who can".  Basically, by
setting the schedule the way he did, he could tell his boss ... "I'm just
setting a reasonable schedule" and he looks good in his boss's eyes.
However what it meant for me was that I have to work extra hours just to
keep up.  And that's why I say ... at some level, they don't care if you're
disabled ... they just want the work done.

My wife had a similar experience in a job she had one time.  She was in
training and was doing her best.  However, she wasn't going as fast as they
wanted.  Eventually they let her go.  

That's why I asked the question ... are blind (totally or partially sighted)
students being told the importance of having their skills up to speed?  And
by "up to speed" ... I'm not just using a catchy phrase.  In order to be
able to work anywhere you want to work, you have to have the knowledge
certainly, but you also have to be able to produce at an acceptable rate.
Perhaps some employers will disregard your "slower speed" because of the
disability, and that's great if you work for a company that does.  Not all
will.  I think a person has to be prepared for both situations because you
never know what environment you're going to find yourself in based on the
type of work you choose to do.  I was not told any of this when I was a
student.  I had to find out the hard way what happens when you have a
disability and it's difficult to keep up.  I just don't want for others be
so naïve or unaware  when they enter the workforce as I was, and then have
the disappointments that I've had when you aren't valued as much as others
and they move ahead and you stand still.

That's why I have a problem with the NFB saying that blindness is merely a
nuisance.   I just don't see it that way.  And that's because of my work
experience for the last 36 years.  If you're ready, prepared, have all the
skills you need (not only academic but also basic blindness skills) then
blindness being a "nuisance" may be a possibility.  It hasn't been that way
for me, and I know my vision has cost me thousands of dollars in lost
income.

I'm not trying to be a defeatist.  I just don't want anybody to have to go
through what I've been through.  Knowledge is important.  But having the
necessary blindness skills so you can keep up is equally important.

> From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com
> To: mrspock56 at hotmail.com; nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Subject: RE: [nfbcs] Telling employers about disability and question 
> about work expectations
> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 21:04:07 -0700
> 
> JMHO, some of this may have to do with being blind but not all of it. 
> There are some employers who, regardless of if a person has a 
> disability, treat the people kind of like machines. Here is your work; get
it done on time.
> Oh, and by the way, if one of the other people machines is unable to 
> work, that work also has to get done somehow, even though there are 
> fewer people machines to do it. I think that, when looking for a job, 
> regardless of if a person has a disability, the person should try to 
> gage if the employer just wants another person machine or if the 
> employer is actually going to value that person for the skills and 
> knowledge that that person has. Yes, I might work a little slower than 
> the rest of my coworkers, but the quality of my work is high, and I 
> have skills and knowledge about accessibility that most of my 
> coworkers do not have. My employer values me for who I am, not what I am.
> As far as disclosing, my vision loss is enough that I could not fake 
> being sighted if I wanted to. Some of my interviews involved working 
> on a computer, so just walking in without giving prior notice of what 
> accommodations I needed would have been a disaster. Finally, most of 
> the positions for which I applied were in accessibility, and 
> disclosing my blindness kind of filled in some of the blanks as to why 
> I was interested and how I had certain background knowledge.
> Last but not least, I disclose my blindness in situations where there 
> could be problems because I would rather know ahead of time if there 
> are going to be problems than after the fact. In short, if someone is 
> not going to respect me for who I am, I'm not going to work for that
person or company.
> Everyone is going to have a different approach to this depending on a 
> million different factors, including level of blindness and comfort 
> level with being blind. I lost my sight when I was four, so, by the 
> time it came to apply for my first internship, the getting used to 
> blindness and learning blindness skills thing was way behind me.
> And, yes, someone else earlier talked about employers discussing 
> disabilities. I usually tell people that I am comfortable answering 
> questions. I often find that this is better than just leaving this 
> awkward silence and assumptions floating around the room.
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> Nicole
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls 
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 11:01 AM
> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nfbcs] Telling employers about disability and question about 
> work expectations
> 
>  
> 
> I wanted to comment on the
> post about disclosing your disability on an interview.  I have 
> definite mixed feelings.
> 
>  
> 
> On one hand, I fully
> understand the risk you take when you disclose the fact that you're 
> disabled.  People have misconceptions that if you can't see as well as 
> a normally sighted person, or if you're blind, then you're going to 
> have major problems or maybe you can't do the job at all.  I know one 
> time when I was talking to my son's girlfriend about math, she asked . 
> "blind people can't do math, can they?  How do they see to do it?".  I 
> had to inform her that there were methods with Braille to do that, but 
> I could tell she wasn't convinced.  Now if she had these feelings (and 
> she wasn't even a recruiter) you know some others are going to have 
> these feelings as well.  So I get the whole idea of protecting 
> yourself against getting locked out before you get a chance to get out of
the blocks.
> 
>  
> 
> On the other hand, the
> employer does need to know what they're getting.  I know in my own 
> situation, my employer hired me not understanding fully what I was 
> capable of, or where my deficiency lay.  And let's be honest . a blind 
> person might not be as fast as a normally sighted person.
> An employer might want to be aware of the impact of hiring the person.  
> I know in my own case, my eye doctor told me . based on my vision . 
> "don't get a job where you're constantly under deadline pressure . you 
> probably will have a hard time getting it done in the time they want 
> it done because you can't see as quickly as a normal person".  Yet I 
> got a job as a computer software developer and I have to say that the 
> doctor was right.  I only read
> 130 words per minute whereas a normal person reads 250.  They can read 
> it faster, and they can do it faster.  And, this problem has killed my
career.
> So does an employer deserve to know the person has a disability so 
> they can decide whether such a deficiency is something they can deal 
> with?  I can definitely see where a person wouldn't want to divulge 
> this since it could mean the difference to getting the job.
> 
>  
> 
> I can see both sides of
> the coin.  It's not an easy answer.
> 
>  
> 
> Now here's something I'm
> curious about.
> 
>  
> 
> Does it usually take a
> blind person longer to finish a job than a regularly sighted person?  
> And by blind, I mean partially sighted or totally blind.  Should the 
> expectation of a blind person be that they'll have to work more hours 
> a day or during the week than a normally sighted person so they can 
> produce at the same level as a normally sighted person?  For me 
> personally, this is something I've had to come to terms with.
> It's not something I want to do, but I know how fast I read, and I 
> only read about half as fast as a normal person.  Doing Braille, I'm 
> not even that fast.  And around where I work, they don't care if 
> you're disabled or normal.  They just want the work done.  They set 
> the deadline and expect a certain work output level and if you can't 
> do it in 40 hours, then their mentality is . "you do what you have to 
> do to get the job done".  If that means work 60 hours because of your 
> disability, then so be it".  And if you can't satisfy that 
> requirement, they just get someone else to do things and you get what's
left.
> 
>  
> 
> So, what expectation
> should a low vision / blind person have when getting a job?  That 
> they'll have to work more and harder than a normally sighted person?  
> I'm curious what your work experience is like.
> Of course, if you're really fast with Braille (for example) and you 
> can read
> 200 words per minute with it and can get the same amount of work done 
> as a normal person, then great for you.  You don't necessarily have to 
> work longer and harder.  I know that hasn't been my luck.
> 
>  
> 
> And if this extra work is
> true . that is if it's something that you eventually realize you have 
> to do as a blind person . I hope that's something that's being 
> communicated to the kids that are coming along.  It took me a long 
> time to realize that and my career suffered because I wasn't aware of 
> it.  The sooner the person realizes this the sooner they can accept it 
> and move on. For me, that's where blindness is not just a nuisance.  It's
been a major roadblock.
> Perhaps if I had learned Braille earlier than age 48 things would have 
> been different.
> 
>  
> 
> Any comments?
> 
>  
> 
>  		 	   		  
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