[nfbcs] Helping a software engineer keep his job

Sat Oct 18 05:02:52 UTC 2014

Hi Jim,

Replies in line.

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 9:39 PM, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
Hey David,

I respect everything you say below and think you've got a lot of experience
to share.

One thing to consider is that you started with windows and then discovered
its deficiencies and decided to move on.

How hard would it have been if you'd started on emacspeak or orca?
Especially if you were expected to come up to speed quickly.

Great question.
Well, if I had experience with linux previously, and say, some experience
with emacs, then emacspeak would have been simpler to learn than something
like Jaws. Orca, at this stage in its development, if run from a recent
distribution like Ubuntu 14.x, performs as well as NVDA by most metrics
including its approachableness. Plus it even has a *legal* port of
Eloquence (Voxin) that you can use.

I get that there's a balance to strike here.  Jaws is a mature product with
a large user base that gets about half the job done. The Linux tools can
get much more done, but demand a higher learning curve or self support.
Not entirely true; emacspeak is really stable these days. The layer that
actually performs the voicing hasn't changed in years. I've been running
emacs and emascpeak from trunk for a long time and haven't run into any
issues. The days of a hard to configure linux box are pretty much behind us
if you run a major distro like Ubuntu.
Also, I know of at least two extremely accomplished software engineers who
do all their development using brltty sans emacspeak.

As I think about it, getting him set up with yasr and letting him play is
probably not a bad idea at all.  He can use screen or some other
multi-windowing terminal environment to boost productivity.

An alternative strategy, if the concern is the stability of the windowing
system on a *nix like env, Mac OS X could work out. But, then again, it
just depends on his situation. If his team or organization uses linux and
builds custom tools for linux, then, I would stick with my first suggestion
to just learn the native tools. There should be no doubt that those tools,
given a recent build of a major distro, will get the job done, if he
chooses to go there.

Sincerely,

Jim

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 09:24:47PM -0700, David Tseng wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> Well, I certainly don't mean to be generalizing which is why I qualified
my
> statement with perhaps, but when every single post mentions Jaws or a
> Windows related solution, I just found it to be somewhat difficult to stay
> on the sidelines. Yes, you can use a Windows screen reader and ssh into a
> linux or unix based box. Does it, over time, help the developer?
>
> I spent my undergraduate years at Berkeley doing exactly the above. The
> biggest issue was always and still is, the substandard access it provides.
> Very simple things like tab completion, are not read properly or
> efficiently. Let's not even get into actually trying to edit config files;
> cursor tracking, for one, simply doesn't work or is flakey. When it comes
> to doing real work, that's just not acceptable.
>
> Anyhow, I digress.
>
> If this person really is trying to develop software on linux, then, coming
> from someone who's worked professionally on Microsoft, Apple, and Linux
> platforms as a software engineer specifically with screen readers and not
> magnifiers, I would strongly suggest investing the time to learn the
native
> platform tools.
>
> As always, just IMO.
>
> - David
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 8:56 PM, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>
> > Hey Everyone,
> >
> > David, I'd like to ask you to reconsider the idea that this list is a
> > windows biased list.  There are plenty of people on this list who have
> > windows and a strong understanding of the screen readers that run on
them.
> >
> > However, there are plenty of people here who are knowledgeable about
> > VoiceOver on OSX and as you've read a few of us who spend our time on
> > various UNIXes.
> >
> > I've spent 30 years doing UNiX sysadmin, tools development, SRE work for
> > Google and now private UNIX cloud architecting for Qualcomm.
> >
> > I do agree about all the AT tools you recommend, especially emacspeak.
I'm
> > just not sure I'd recommend them for an AT beginner.  Jaws and NVDA
have a
> > much larger user base and so more people to help answer his questions
and
> > help him find his footing.
> >
> > However, if the blind person is confident, ready to try new things and
> > figure things out on his own, then absolutely spend some time with yasr,
> > emacspeak, or even orca.  I'd just warn him that these tools are not a
> > polished and well understood as a standard windows screen reader.
> >
> > Take Care,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 06:19:51PM -0700, David Tseng via nfbcs wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I think without a fuller description of the software engineer's
current
> > > setup and level of sight, it's difficult to say exactly what will meet
> > his
> > > assistive technology needs.
> > >
> > > With that said, I have a few recommendations that may help or lead to
> > more
> > > questions and answers. Firstly, this list is probably not the greatest
> > one
> > > to ask about linux as it does have a slight or perhaps major Windows
> > bias.
> > > For that reason, I would ask on the Orca, Gnome A11y, Speak Up, and
> > > Emacspeak lists. These are the folks who are using those products day
to
> > > day for both work and play.
> > > Secondly, if he already knows Emacs, I would highly suggest he pick up
> > > Emacspeak. It's pretty much the best in class development environment
for
> > > perhaps any software engineer who uses speech on any platform. It does
> > have
> > > a decidedly high learning curve, most of which involves learning Emacs
> > and
> > > core linux system management. I'm assuming he doesn't know braille;
> > > otherwise, Brltty is fabulous for post boot access to a linux shell
> > > environment.
> > >
> > > Finally, I'd be happy to chat offline as some things are better
discussed
> > > in a less latent medium as email.
> > >
> > > HTH,
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Gary Wunder via nfbcs <
nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Several days ago I was contacted by a software engineer who is going
> > blind.
> > > > He uses the Linux operating system, and what he really needs is a
way
> > to
> > > > efficiently do the things that are required of him as a programmer
for
> > > > Lockheed Martin. His employer seems to be willing to get him any
> > equipment
> > > > that might help him in his job, so they have gotten him Zoom text,
the
> > > > K1000, and I think they have even purchased several copies of JAWS
for
> > > > Windows for him to use on several computers. Of course all of these
are
> > > > based on Microsoft Windows, and what he really needs to interact
with
> > is a
> > > > Linux box. He has figured out a way to do some terminal emulation
that
> > lets
> > > > him use screen reading technology, but all of the workarounds really
> > make
> > > > it
> > > > difficult for him to do what once was efficient.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Do any of you have ideas about how to help him? My impression is
that
> > he is
> > > > smart, motivated, well regarded by his employer, but at his wits in
as
> > to
> > > > how to do his job and to meet the deadlines that are being offered.
He
> > is
> > > > monitoring this list and will appreciate any comments that people
care
> > to
> > > > give. I will be monitoring the list, but I will be on vacation and
> > rather
> > > > out of touch for the next ten days or so. I thank all of you for
> > thinking
> > > > about this and giving him your best ideas. His name is Graham Mehl.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Warmly,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gary
> > > >
> > > > Linix operating system
> > > >
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~