[nfbcs] The Mac Beckens

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Mon Jan 18 03:30:18 UTC 2016 

I've had a dream for a long time of putting together a screen reader 
rating site. It would have to be carefully moderated. Last time I tried, 
I was so royally flamed I gave it up as a lost cause.

Maybe I'll give it another try. Part of the problem is that the 
moderator has to be someone with an infinite amount of patience and a 
great deal of knowledge of screen readers. I don't know anybody like 
that.  I have the patience but not the knowledge. I thought I could just 
throw something together and let people tell me how to fix it. But most 
people were only interested in telling me how ignorant I was.


On 01/17/2016 05:14 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
> True, but with PC's you get more options when it comes to price and 
> with NVDA, JAWS home license, Window-Eyes and Linux, you can get a 
> cheaper system, including screen reader, then you can with Apple.
>
> On 17/01/16 14:27, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>> I think one of the mainreasons people like voiceover so much is that it
>> is included on every Apple device for no additional cost. That is
>> non-trivial.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 01/17/2016 01:55 PM, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
>>>                  Here is my opinion. I will use a Mac when hell
>>> freezes over.
>>> What the devil is so much better about VoiceOver?
>>>
>>>                  Stop making empty claims without supporting them. Stop
>>> cherry picking the information that you want and ignoring the rest. As
>>> this
>>> article
>>> <http://qz.com/588126/theres-a-good-reason-americans-are-horrible-at-science 
>>>
>>>
>>> />  says, stops using facts "much like a drunk uses a
>>>
>>> lamppost: for support, not illumination."
>>>
>>>                  VoiceOver has just as many, if not more, problems as
>>> other
>>> screen readers. I know because many of my coworkers use Macs, and
>>> Apple is
>>> introducing more bugs than they are fixing when it comes to internet 
>>> use.
>>> And they have no pressure to fix the bugs because, on the Mac, there
>>> is no
>>> competition.
>>>
>>>                  Microsoft has a screen reader; it is called Narrator.
>>> I have
>>> heard that it is better on newer versions of Windows, which I have not
>>> tried, but, from my experience, it does not work worth a damn. I know
>>> that
>>> Microsoft has some kind of deal with Windows Eyes, but it does not
>>> work well
>>> with complex websites. Also, if Microsoft will not even consider
>>> accessibility when making their products, and do stuff like put the
>>> ribbon
>>> everywhere, why would they be interested in maintaining a screen 
>>> reader?
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicole
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>> Donahue via
>>> nfbcs
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:25 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Peter Donahue
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>>                  If Microsoft would do with its Windows screen reader
>>> what
>>> Apple has done with the MAC and its iDevices perhaps we would have 
>>> fewer
>>> issues with compatibility and accessibility tools could be kept
>>> up-to-date
>>> more easily and with little to no cost. Perhaps some MAC and iOS users
>>> could
>>> weigh in on this issue with the petition and share their experiences 
>>> with
>>> accessing it under iOS and oSX. Perhaps in another few years we'll be
>>> 100%
>>> Mac and iOS users in this house-hold.
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: nfbcs [ <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>>> mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain via
>>> nfbcs
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:35 PM
>>>
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>
>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA and JAWS [was "Re: Petition Asking President
>>> Obama
>>> To Direct the JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations"]
>>>
>>>
>>> The idea that anything that's three years old is antiquated is 
>>> incorrect.
>>>
>>> I'm sure quite a few people on this list are using Office2013 or
>>> Office 2010
>>> if not something older. Microsoft and many companies support 
>>> products for
>>> more than three years. People used Windows XP for ten years and beyond.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never saw anything on this list that the problem accessing this
>>> petition
>>> has to do with the version of JAWS being used. I get the impression 
>>> that
>>> people using more recent versions of JAWS are experiencing the same
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> In other words, I didn't see anything in this thread that JAWS 13
>>> can't do
>>> the job and can't be used affectively for all sorts of tasks. It seems
>>> to me
>>> that people are just jumping to conclusions and using this message to
>>> make a
>>> point rather than help a JAWS user solve their problem and submit this
>>> petition.
>>>
>>>
>>> Obviously, I can't tell people what words they can and cannot use, 
>>> but I
>>> think information can be provided in a more sympathetic tone. I'm sure
>>> most
>>> people running JAWS 13 would like to upgrade, and they don't need to 
>>> have
>>> their faces rubbed in the fact that they can't afford an update.
>>>
>>> No one may have intended to make anyone feel bad but communication is
>>> a two
>>> way street, and people need to take into account not just how their 
>>> words
>>> are intended but how they may be received.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/01/16 22:08, Buddy Brannan via nfbcs wrote:
>>>
>>>> The unfortunate reality is that you simply *can't* do everything with
>>>> one
>>> screen reader. There's certainly no reason not to have more than one
>>> if you
>>> can afford one, because NVDA is free software. Both definitions of 
>>> free.
>>>
>>> Window-Eyes is even no cost if you have Office 2010 or newer.
>>>
>>>> The other unfortunate reality is that Jaws 13.0 *is* antiquated, and
>>>> that
>>> isn't meant to make anyone feel bad, it's just a fact. You really
>>> can't use
>>> a three year old version of anything and expect it to behave correctly
>>> with
>>> something that's newer. It just isn't realistic.
>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>>> Email:  <mailto:buddy at brannan.name> buddy at brannan.name
>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 10:55 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
>>> < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I agree that it's good to have NVDA in your tool box regardless of
>>>>> what
>>> version of JAWS you're running, but it isn't always possible for
>>> people to
>>> keep up with a product like JAWS, and using two different screen
>>> readers can
>>> be frustrating. I think it's OK to suggest JAWS, but there's no need
>>> to make
>>> anyone feel bad by calling the tools they can afford to use 
>>> "antiquated".
>>>
>>>>> On 16/01/16 15:18, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> This is why when jaws users know they're not going to be able to
>>>>>> update jaws it's a good idea to have installed nvda to do the jobs
>>>>>> their antiquated version of jaws can no longer do.
>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:03:52
>>>>>>> From: Mike Freeman via nfbcs < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List < 
>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>>>>> Cc: Mike Freeman < <mailto:k7uij at panix.com> k7uij at panix.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>>>>>>      JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>>>>> excess ability does not imply backward compatibility. Your version
>>>>>>> of jaws is several versions out of date. I suspect it may be part
>>>>>>> of the problem.
>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 12:52, Jennifer Aberdeen via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why is this patition not accessible? When I click on the submit
>>>>>>>> button, in different ways; enter, space, left mouse button on the
>>>>>>>> num pad, nothing happens.
>>>>>>>> I'm using jaws 13 with win 7 and IE 11.
>>>>>>>> Jen
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Chong via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:38 PM
>>>>>>>> To:  <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>>>>>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>>>>>> Greetings:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016, the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>> launched a petition (the link to which is provided below) calling
>>>>>>>> on the Obama administration promptly to release the long-awaited
>>>>>>>> ADA internet regulations. On the 20th anniversary of the Americans
>>>>>>>> with Disabilities Act (way back in 2010), President Obama said
>>>>>>>> that he would issue regulations implementing the requirement for
>>>>>>>> accessible websites, noting that they would be "the most important
>>>>>>>> updates to the ADA since its original enactment."
>>>>>>>> President Obama now says that the regulations will not be released
>>>>>>>> until 2018, after he leaves office.
>>>>>>>> For those of who are blind, inaccessible websites can make it
>>>>>>>> impossible to apply for jobs, participate in online courses, or
>>>>>>>> conduct vital personal financial business. Website developers need
>>>>>>>> guidance on how to comply with the law. Failing to provide that
>>>>>>>> guidance is irresponsible and inconsistent with President Obama's
>>>>>>>> expressed commitment to civil rights.
>>>>>>>> If you are interested in signing the petition (and I hope you
>>>>>>>> are), point your browser to this link.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-jus> 
>>>>>>>>
>>> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-jus
>>>
>>>>>>>> tice-promp
>>>>>>>> tly-release-ada-internet-regulations
>>>>>>>> As an example of the need for these regulations, some JAWS users
>>>>>>>> running Internet Explorer have reported a problem with the "sign"
>>>>>>>> button when attempting to add their name. Here are some solutions
>>>>>>>> to help mitigate that problem.
>>>>>>>> 1.            Try routing the JAWS cursor to PC (Insert+Numpad
>>>>>>>> Minus), and
>>>>>>>> pressing  the left mouse button (Numpad Slash), and the "sign"
>>>>>>>> button will be selected.
>>>>>>>> 2.            Alternatively, you can sign the petition using the
>>> Mozilla
>>>
>>>>>>>> Firefox browser.
>>>>>>>> The petition is reported to be accessible using iOS devices such
>>>>>>>> as the iPad or iPhone.
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>> Curtis Chong, President
>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>   <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>> ---
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>>>>>>>> om
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>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> me
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> m
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>
>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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