[nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
Jim Barbour
jbar at barcore.com
Mon Jan 18 03:34:55 UTC 2016
I don't have a strong side to take in this argument, but I will point out that the convenience cost point is it really valid. You can buy windows machines rescreen with screen readers preinstalled from third-party resellers.
On the other hand, I feel there's a lot of value in being able to walk up to any Macintosh, or pick up anybody's iPhone, and know that I can independently turn on and use a full-featured screen reader.
Jim
Written While on the Move
> On Jan 17, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Peter Donahue via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Good evening everyone,
>
> For some the extra money is worth it to have your device come with
> an accessibility solution already built in and ready to go and not have to
> hassle with the issues related to using Windows and associated screen access
> systems. It's a case of convenience over cost. If one can perform all
> computing tasks they did in Windows in the Apple environment convenience
> will win out any day.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
> Chaltain via nfbcs
> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 5:15 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>
> True, but with PC's you get more options when it comes to price and with
> NVDA, JAWS home license, Window-Eyes and Linux, you can get a cheaper
> system, including screen reader, then you can with Apple.
>
>> On 17/01/16 14:27, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>> I think one of the mainreasons people like voiceover so much is that
>> it is included on every Apple device for no additional cost. That is
>> non-trivial.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 01/17/2016 01:55 PM, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
>>> Here is my opinion. I will use a Mac when hell
>>> freezes over.
>>> What the devil is so much better about VoiceOver?
>>>
>>> Stop making empty claims without supporting them.
>>> Stop cherry picking the information that you want and ignoring the
>>> rest. As this article
>>> <http://qz.com/588126/theres-a-good-reason-americans-are-horrible-at-
>>> science
>>>
>>> /> says, stops using facts "much like a drunk uses a
>>>
>>> lamppost: for support, not illumination."
>>>
>>> VoiceOver has just as many, if not more, problems as
>>> other screen readers. I know because many of my coworkers use Macs,
>>> and Apple is introducing more bugs than they are fixing when it comes
>>> to internet use.
>>> And they have no pressure to fix the bugs because, on the Mac, there
>>> is no competition.
>>>
>>> Microsoft has a screen reader; it is called Narrator.
>>> I have
>>> heard that it is better on newer versions of Windows, which I have
>>> not tried, but, from my experience, it does not work worth a damn. I
>>> know that Microsoft has some kind of deal with Windows Eyes, but it
>>> does not work well with complex websites. Also, if Microsoft will not
>>> even consider accessibility when making their products, and do stuff
>>> like put the ribbon everywhere, why would they be interested in
>>> maintaining a screen reader?
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicole
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>> Donahue via nfbcs
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:25 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Peter Donahue
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>> If Microsoft would do with its Windows screen reader
>>> what Apple has done with the MAC and its iDevices perhaps we would
>>> have fewer issues with compatibility and accessibility tools could be
>>> kept up-to-date more easily and with little to no cost. Perhaps some
>>> MAC and iOS users could weigh in on this issue with the petition and
>>> share their experiences with accessing it under iOS and oSX. Perhaps
>>> in another few years we'll be 100% Mac and iOS users in this
>>> house-hold.
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: nfbcs [ <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>>> mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain
>>> via nfbcs
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:35 PM
>>>
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>
>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA and JAWS [was "Re: Petition Asking
>>> President Obama To Direct the JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet
>>> Regulations"]
>>>
>>>
>>> The idea that anything that's three years old is antiquated is incorrect.
>>>
>>> I'm sure quite a few people on this list are using Office2013 or
>>> Office 2010 if not something older. Microsoft and many companies
>>> support products for more than three years. People used Windows XP
>>> for ten years and beyond.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never saw anything on this list that the problem accessing this
>>> petition has to do with the version of JAWS being used. I get the
>>> impression that people using more recent versions of JAWS are
>>> experiencing the same problem.
>>>
>>> In other words, I didn't see anything in this thread that JAWS 13
>>> can't do the job and can't be used affectively for all sorts of
>>> tasks. It seems to me that people are just jumping to conclusions and
>>> using this message to make a point rather than help a JAWS user solve
>>> their problem and submit this petition.
>>>
>>>
>>> Obviously, I can't tell people what words they can and cannot use,
>>> but I think information can be provided in a more sympathetic tone.
>>> I'm sure most people running JAWS 13 would like to upgrade, and they
>>> don't need to have their faces rubbed in the fact that they can't
>>> afford an update.
>>>
>>> No one may have intended to make anyone feel bad but communication is
>>> a two way street, and people need to take into account not just how
>>> their words are intended but how they may be received.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 16/01/16 22:08, Buddy Brannan via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The unfortunate reality is that you simply *can't* do everything
>>>> with one
>>> screen reader. There's certainly no reason not to have more than one
>>> if you can afford one, because NVDA is free software. Both
>>> definitions of free.
>>>
>>> Window-Eyes is even no cost if you have Office 2010 or newer.
>>>
>>>> The other unfortunate reality is that Jaws 13.0 *is* antiquated, and
>>>> that
>>> isn't meant to make anyone feel bad, it's just a fact. You really
>>> can't use a three year old version of anything and expect it to
>>> behave correctly with something that's newer. It just isn't
>>> realistic.
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>>> Email: <mailto:buddy at brannan.name> buddy at brannan.name
>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 10:55 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
>>> < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I agree that it's good to have NVDA in your tool box regardless of
>>>>> what
>>> version of JAWS you're running, but it isn't always possible for
>>> people to keep up with a product like JAWS, and using two different
>>> screen readers can be frustrating. I think it's OK to suggest JAWS,
>>> but there's no need to make anyone feel bad by calling the tools they
>>> can afford to use "antiquated".
>>>
>>>>>> On 16/01/16 15:18, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> This is why when jaws users know they're not going to be able to
>>>>>> update jaws it's a good idea to have installed nvda to do the jobs
>>>>>> their antiquated version of jaws can no longer do.
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:03:52
>>>>>>> From: Mike Freeman via nfbcs < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <
>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>>>>> Cc: Mike Freeman < <mailto:k7uij at panix.com> k7uij at panix.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>>>>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations excess
>>>>>>> ability does not imply backward compatibility. Your version of
>>>>>>> jaws is several versions out of date. I suspect it may be part of
>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 12:52, Jennifer Aberdeen via nfbcs <
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why is this patition not accessible? When I click on the submit
>>>>>>>> button, in different ways; enter, space, left mouse button on
>>>>>>>> the num pad, nothing happens.
>>>>>>>> I'm using jaws 13 with win 7 and IE 11.
>>>>>>>> Jen
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Chong via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:38 PM
>>>>>>>> To: <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>>>>>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>>>>>> Greetings:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016, the National Federation of the
>>>>>>>> Blind launched a petition (the link to which is provided below)
>>>>>>>> calling on the Obama administration promptly to release the
>>>>>>>> long-awaited ADA internet regulations. On the 20th anniversary
>>>>>>>> of the Americans with Disabilities Act (way back in 2010),
>>>>>>>> President Obama said that he would issue regulations
>>>>>>>> implementing the requirement for accessible websites, noting
>>>>>>>> that they would be "the most important updates to the ADA since its
> original enactment."
>>>>>>>> President Obama now says that the regulations will not be
>>>>>>>> released until 2018, after he leaves office.
>>>>>>>> For those of who are blind, inaccessible websites can make it
>>>>>>>> impossible to apply for jobs, participate in online courses, or
>>>>>>>> conduct vital personal financial business. Website developers
>>>>>>>> need guidance on how to comply with the law. Failing to provide
>>>>>>>> that guidance is irresponsible and inconsistent with President
>>>>>>>> Obama's expressed commitment to civil rights.
>>>>>>>> If you are interested in signing the petition (and I hope you
>>>>>>>> are), point your browser to this link.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-
>>>>>>>> jus>
>>> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-jus
>>>
>>>>>>>> tice-promp
>>>>>>>> tly-release-ada-internet-regulations
>>>>>>>> As an example of the need for these regulations, some JAWS users
>>>>>>>> running Internet Explorer have reported a problem with the "sign"
>>>>>>>> button when attempting to add their name. Here are some
>>>>>>>> solutions to help mitigate that problem.
>>>>>>>> 1. Try routing the JAWS cursor to PC (Insert+Numpad
>>>>>>>> Minus), and
>>>>>>>> pressing the left mouse button (Numpad Slash), and the "sign"
>>>>>>>> button will be selected.
>>>>>>>> 2. Alternatively, you can sign the petition using the
>>> Mozilla
>>>
>>>>>>>> Firefox browser.
>>>>>>>> The petition is reported to be accessible using iOS devices such
>>>>>>>> as the iPad or iPhone.
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>> Curtis Chong, President
>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>>>>>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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>>>>>>>> om
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>>>>> --
>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> me
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> m
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>
>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
> --
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
>
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