[nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations

Mon Jan 25 13:02:28 UTC 2016

I don't really have a horse in this race, but I think the analogies are 
getting a bit far fetched.

What's Facebook being compared to? The NFB.ortg site? If so, the 
differences are so significant and obvious, it seems pointless to even 
point them out.

I also don't get the analogy with the Judge below. People have been 
collecting petitions long before there was a web. There are also 
perfectly accessible web sites out there who's purpose is to do nothing 
but organize petitions, such as change.org. I'm not sure why the NFB or 
anyone else can't use other means to collect signatures on a petition 
and bring them to the attention of the White House. A better analogy 
seems like it would be, "Judge, I have a petition here with over a 
thousand signatures." It may not be as affective as using the White 
House's own web site, but if we're going to use analogies in this 
discussion, let's make them relevant. A bad analogy does more to 
undermine someone’s argument than it does to strengthen it.

On 25/01/16 04:15, Doug Lee via nfbcs wrote:
> I think there is confusion here between primary and secondary goals,
> and on who needs to hear what; so here's a summary of how I see the
> situation:
>
> 1. We wanted the Obama administration to see that a lot of us want something done, so we went to an
> administration site and filed a petition asking them to do it. At this stage, it should be clear that filing
> our petition on our own site would be profoundly useless as no one would even know to come looking for it. It
> would be like announcing to a judge, "I am accused of a crime I did not commit, so I need you to come to my
> house on Thursday to preside over a hearing in my defense." The judge would naturally say, "I'll preside here
> in my court, and my next opening is Friday. See you then."
>
> 2. We needed the administration to see a lot of names, so we went to our own mailing lists and asked blind
> people to sign the petition. Of course this request for help itself needed to be accessible, and it was - it
> was on our own lists and such.
>
> 3. We found that the administration's site was not wonderfully accessible, so we provided help to blind people
> who wanted to sign their names on it anyway. Again, this help was provided accessibly.
>
> 4. We might want the petition itself to be made more accessible. For that, we would go to those who run that
> site and make our case. Making that case here, on our internal lists, is again rather useless because the
> right people won't hear us.
>
> I understand your frustration, and your feeling the irony of this accessibility issue on a petition about
> accessibility. But it is important to keep straight who we are trying to talk to and how to get precisely
> those people to hear us, for each case when we want something done.
>
> Regarding the Facebook comment: Facebook had something to offer people, not something to ask of them. If you want to ask
> something of people, you go to them. You don't make them come to you just to find out what you want. Our primary goal
> here is to ask something of the government, so we went to a government site and filed our request.
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 08:39:50PM -0600, NFBCS mailing list wrote:
> Hello Dave and everyone,
>
> 	The only way to put these notions to the test is for the NFB to host
> such petitions on its own Website. Facebook etc were unknowns at one time
> but people spread the word and they're now house-hold social networking
> sites. Obviously if I have information of interest and want to direct
> Internet traffic to it and want visitors to not encounter accessibility
> issues I would host such information on a Website usable by all including
> those who use assistive technology. Furthermore those who visit a Website
> designed with accessibility in mind would see an example of how a Website
> must be designed that is usable by all visitors including the blind. If the
> NFB did this with this petition we wouldn't have our inboxes cluttered by
> messages from those having difficulty signing the petition to wade through.
> Mary and I support the spirit of what we want to see the Obama
> Administration to to improve Internet accessibility but not at the expense
> of having difficulty accessing the very petitions we're being asked to sign.
> This is America and there must be different approaches for solving the same
> issue that appeal to the needs of different people. If organizations like
> the NFB want us to sign petitions of this nature they had better be hosted
> on Websites usable by the blind including the organization's own accessible
> Website. People come after organizations because they're made to do so by
> said organizations hypocritical actions!
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews via
> nfbcs
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 6:33 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: David Andrews
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>
> Peter, get off your high horse. You certainly seem willing to go after the
> NFB at every opportunity.
>
> While the accessibility problems are unfortunate, they are also an
> opportunity to work with the web site developers.
>
> I presume this site was picked because it is an official Obama
> administration site, and they have said they will seriously consider
> anything that gets 100,000 signatures.
>
> I would guess that if we hosted the petition, we would not get such
> consideration.
>
> Dave
>
> At 03:39 PM 1/16/2016, you wrote:
>
>
>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>
>>      It's because the NFB acted irresponsibly and used and placed the
>> petition on a Website with known accessibility issues and no way to
>> fix it. The organization has its in-house content management system
>> and could have hosted it there where it can be managed by in-house
>> technology staff who better understand the business of making Internet
>> resources accessible. I've seen this organization go down this road
>> many times and it's time for it to stop!
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>> Jennifer Aberdeen via nfbcs wrote:
>>> Why is this patition not accessible? When I click on the submit
>>> button, in different ways; enter, space, left mouse button on the num
>>> pad, nothing happens.
>>>
>>> I'm using jaws 13 with win 7 and IE 11.
>>>
>>> Jen
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Chong via nfbcs
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:38 PM
>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>
>>> Greetings:
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016, the National Federation of the Blind
>>> launched a petition (the link to which is provided below) calling on
>>> the Obama administration promptly to release the long-awaited ADA
>>> internet regulations. On the 20th anniversary of the Americans with
>>> Disabilities Act (way back in 2010), President Obama said that he
>>> would issue regulations implementing the requirement for accessible
>>> websites, noting that they would be "the most important updates to the ADA
> since its original enactment."
>>> President Obama now says that the regulations will not be released
>>> until 2018, after he leaves office.
>>>
>>> For those of who are blind, inaccessible websites can make it
>>> impossible to apply for jobs, participate in online courses, or
>>> conduct vital personal financial business. Website developers need
>>> guidance on how to comply with the law. Failing to provide that
>>> guidance is irresponsible and inconsistent with President Obama's
> expressed commitment to civil rights.
>>>
>>> If you are interested in signing the petition (and I hope you are),
>>> point your browser to this link.
>>>
>>> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-justice
>>> -promp
>>> tly-release-ada-internet-regulations
>>>
>>> As an example of the need for these regulations, some JAWS users
>>> running Internet Explorer have reported a problem with the "sign"
>>> button when attempting to add their name. Here are some solutions to
>>> help mitigate that problem.
>>>
>>> 1.            Try routing the JAWS cursor to PC (Insert+Numpad Minus), and
>>> pressing  the left mouse button (Numpad Slash), and the "sign" button
>>> will be selected.
>>>
>>> 2.            Alternatively, you can sign the petition using the Mozilla
>>> Firefox browser.
>>>
>>> The petition is reported to be accessible using iOS devices such as
>>> the iPad or iPhone.
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>>
>>> Curtis Chong, President
>>> National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science
>
>           David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
> E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>
>
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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail