[nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question

[Deborah Armstrong]

Thanks for your well-written description of the issues. I am going to save it because it's the clearest explanation I've read, and re-assures me that I'm not going crazy.

I've studied object oriented design so I understand what a model is -- I've explained to people that the OSM is a database that changes constantly of what the screen reader believes is onscreen at any given time. Of course developers know that it contains info that's not currently displayed as well, but I think this minor over-simplification helps people understand more clearly what it is.

The idea that there will no longer be a middle ground certainly makes sense. I've noticed that to script Outlook for example, JAWS now depends on information exposed from various add-ons. I discovered this when an add-on got corrupted and prevented the entire JAWS script from working, even though Outlook, itself was still working fine. 

I suppose whether access depends on a particular add-on or a particular undocumented operating system hook doesn't in the long run matter, but it's kind of scary to have it all be so tenuous!

--Debee



-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via nfbcs
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:59 AM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Cc: Steve Jacobson
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question

Deborah,

What you describe frustrates many of us.  In the old days, JAWS and Window-Eyes used sometimes undocumented hooks to build what they called their off-screen model of what was being presented visually.  This was often shortened to OSM.  However, Microsoft has been moving toward a more closed system requiring that information be retrieved using MSAA or UIA, or sometimes Document Object Models and the like.  While this works more reliably in some cases and makes the operating system more stable and secure in general.  The information we used to get from the OSM is not always presented in a way that lets us use the mouse keys.  There are cases when text is available but has a chunk of text without the information associated with each character, or data is not presented at all in a way that can be tied to a mouse pointer position.  

Among other problems, this eliminates our ability to sometimes make software that is not accessible at least useable.  Also, it makes it more difficult for those of us who write software or web pages to truly know how the results actually appear.

We have raised this issue with Microsoft and we will continue raising it.
Some of this, though, seems to be a product of us becoming more dependent on what the operating system or particular software exposes to us.  As I understand it, some of the same issues exist in the Apple world where there really has not been an OSM in the same way.  

Having said all this, there are also cases where screen readers have not fully made available the information that is exposed because it involves coding for something that is new, and they are challenged to just keep up with all of the changes.  It is therefore hard to know to what degree screen readers could be doing more.  Also, we've seen cases where certain UIA calls that should work cause trouble of their own.  More and more, I am afraid that software is going to be accessible or not accessible with very little middleground.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:05 PM
To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
Cc: Deborah Armstrong <armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu>
Subject: [nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question

I've been using screen readers since the 1980s, and Windows 7 is the first time I've actually struggled with this issue. I realized this list was the perfect place to ask.

It appears that the so-called "mouse cursor" (what JFW calls the JAWS
cursor) can no longer freely roam the screen. At first I thought this was indeed just an issue with JFW, but in experimenting with NVDA and with WindowEyes I see the same behavior.

I can run an application in Windows XP and explore the entire screen or active window, depending on whether I restricted the cursor, and pretty much review everything text-based that is there.

But in Windows 7 (and presumably 8 and 10 as well) half the time what I receive by exploring the screen with a mouse cursor is a jumble. And from that jumble text is missing that the screen reader just finished speaking.

This happens on all my machines, in areas where there is no insertion point, or real cursor. I can run the same software and get two different results between XP and 7, even with NVDA's screen review feature.

The most dramatic example of this is in Outlook, where in XP I can examine a message's fields, To, From, date, subject, etc. all using the invisible, JAWS, mouse or review cursor.

Reviewing the same message in the same version of outlook in Windows 7, only parts of those fields appear to the mouse cursor.

In a window with multiple panes I could usually get to a pane that didn't receive focus to read information there. Now it's hit or miss; sometimes I can read the info, sometimes the screen reader voices it automatically but I never locate it when I review, and sometimes it's easy to review.

As an advanced user, I always made extensive use of the review capabilities of my screen reader, and I wish I knew what was going on here and why I apparently can no longer read everything onscreen. I'd really like a technical explanation of what is happening and what work-arounds people are finding?

Thoughts?

--Debee
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