[nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question

[Steve Jacobson]

Deborah,

What you describe frustrates many of us.  In the old days, JAWS and
Window-Eyes used sometimes undocumented hooks to build what they called
their off-screen model of what was being presented visually.  This was often
shortened to OSM.  However, Microsoft has been moving toward a more closed
system requiring that information be retrieved using MSAA or UIA, or
sometimes Document Object Models and the like.  While this works more
reliably in some cases and makes the operating system more stable and secure
in general.  The information we used to get from the OSM is not always
presented in a way that lets us use the mouse keys.  There are cases when
text is available but has a chunk of text without the information associated
with each character, or data is not presented at all in a way that can be
tied to a mouse pointer position.  

Among other problems, this eliminates our ability to sometimes make software
that is not accessible at least useable.  Also, it makes it more difficult
for those of us who write software or web pages to truly know how the
results actually appear.

We have raised this issue with Microsoft and we will continue raising it.
Some of this, though, seems to be a product of us becoming more dependent on
what the operating system or particular software exposes to us.  As I
understand it, some of the same issues exist in the Apple world where there
really has not been an OSM in the same way.  

Having said all this, there are also cases where screen readers have not
fully made available the information that is exposed because it involves
coding for something that is new, and they are challenged to just keep up
with all of the changes.  It is therefore hard to know to what degree screen
readers could be doing more.  Also, we've seen cases where certain UIA calls
that should work cause trouble of their own.  More and more, I am afraid
that software is going to be accessible or not accessible with very little
middleground.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong
via nfbcs
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:05 PM
To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
Cc: Deborah Armstrong <armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu>
Subject: [nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question

I've been using screen readers since the 1980s, and Windows 7 is the first
time I've actually struggled with this issue. I realized this list was the
perfect place to ask.

It appears that the so-called "mouse cursor" (what JFW calls the JAWS
cursor) can no longer freely roam the screen. At first I thought this was
indeed just an issue with JFW, but in experimenting with NVDA and with
WindowEyes I see the same behavior.

I can run an application in Windows XP and explore the entire screen or
active window, depending on whether I restricted the cursor, and pretty much
review everything text-based that is there.

But in Windows 7 (and presumably 8 and 10 as well) half the time what I
receive by exploring the screen with a mouse cursor is a jumble. And from
that jumble text is missing that the screen reader just finished speaking.

This happens on all my machines, in areas where there is no insertion point,
or real cursor. I can run the same software and get two different results
between XP and 7, even with NVDA's screen review feature.

The most dramatic example of this is in Outlook, where in XP I can examine a
message's fields, To, From, date, subject, etc. all using the invisible,
JAWS, mouse or review cursor.

Reviewing the same message in the same version of outlook in Windows 7, only
parts of those fields appear to the mouse cursor.

In a window with multiple panes I could usually get to a pane that didn't
receive focus to read information there. Now it's hit or miss; sometimes I
can read the info, sometimes the screen reader voices it automatically but I
never locate it when I review, and sometimes it's easy to review.

As an advanced user, I always made extensive use of the review capabilities
of my screen reader, and I wish I knew what was going on here and why I
apparently can no longer read everything onscreen. I'd really like a
technical explanation of what is happening and what work-arounds people are
finding?

Thoughts?

--Debee
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