[nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question

Thu Sep 15 02:33:41 UTC 2016

This sounds like one of the fears I've always had when an OS and 
application company also gets into the screen reading business. There 
are a lot of advantages to this, and Apple has done a great job, but I 
worry that cross platform application support will suffer. How much 
effort will Apple make to have Firefox or Chrome accessible on their 
platforms? What about Microsoft Narrator support for the same browsers? 
I assume access wile be great if your OS, applications and screen reader 
all come from the same company, but with the 3rd party screen readers 
there was another player working to make these cross platform 
applications accessible as well.

On 14/09/16 14:01, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs wrote:
> Debee,
>
> You have hit upon one of the things that scares me as well.  I don't think
> we have much to worry about regarding browsing the web and doing email.
> There will be options if one considers Windows, IOS, Apple MACs, and
> Android.  If something happens in any of those areas, we can move to another
> platform even if it is inconvenient.  However, much of the software we use
> on the job was made more useable by screen reader hooks.  My job has
> required a good deal of work using 3270 emulation.  While I can probably
> pick and choose a 3270 emulator that can work with any screen reader, the
> two emulators that my employer has used work fine with Window-Eyes and JFW
> but do not work with NVDA, most likely because of the more complete OSM's
> that those screen reader's had.  If Microsoft comes out with a complete
> screen reader but one that is based solely on Microsoft approved techniques,
> or if the continued evolution of Windows forces such compliance, I worry
> about our ability to use software on the job that doesn't follow the rules.
> I think our ability to access software on the job is a real mixed bag.  We
> have better access in some ways but poorer access in others.  Some of the
> accessibility standards are very reasonable, but some of our access can so
> easily be broken.  In many ways, screen readers have not changed that much
> over the past twenty years in terms of how software interfaces with them
> although a lot has changed under the hood, so to speak, to keep up with
> changes to Windows and Microsoft Office.  Much of what has been done,
> though, has been done to make sure that we could keep up, not to give us
> improved or more flexible access.  We have made a good deal of progress in
> terms of awareness of accessibility, but twenty years after the Microsoft
> Accessibility Summit, I can't restore the standard functions of function
> keys on some HP and other computers without sighted help.  For perhaps five
> years, we have not been able to access the envelop addressing dialog in Word
> or the signature in Outlook and these were known bugs that did not get
> addressed until very recently.  I am seeing a lot of effort being made by
> large companies to make software more accessible, but I think it is less the
> case that people care about how efficient we can use software.  That can
> mean a great deal on the job.  It is a complicated landscape and we need to
> be thinking about all this as we move into the future.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:10 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Deborah Armstrong <armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question
>
> Thanks for your well-written description of the issues. I am going to save
> it because it's the clearest explanation I've read, and re-assures me that
> I'm not going crazy.
>
> I've studied object oriented design so I understand what a model is -- I've
> explained to people that the OSM is a database that changes constantly of
> what the screen reader believes is onscreen at any given time. Of course
> developers know that it contains info that's not currently displayed as
> well, but I think this minor over-simplification helps people understand
> more clearly what it is.
>
> The idea that there will no longer be a middle ground certainly makes sense.
> I've noticed that to script Outlook for example, JAWS now depends on
> information exposed from various add-ons. I discovered this when an add-on
> got corrupted and prevented the entire JAWS script from working, even though
> Outlook, itself was still working fine.
>
> I suppose whether access depends on a particular add-on or a particular
> undocumented operating system hook doesn't in the long run matter, but it's
> kind of scary to have it all be so tenuous!
>
> --Debee
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:59 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Steve Jacobson
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question
>
> Deborah,
>
> What you describe frustrates many of us.  In the old days, JAWS and
> Window-Eyes used sometimes undocumented hooks to build what they called
> their off-screen model of what was being presented visually.  This was often
> shortened to OSM.  However, Microsoft has been moving toward a more closed
> system requiring that information be retrieved using MSAA or UIA, or
> sometimes Document Object Models and the like.  While this works more
> reliably in some cases and makes the operating system more stable and secure
> in general.  The information we used to get from the OSM is not always
> presented in a way that lets us use the mouse keys.  There are cases when
> text is available but has a chunk of text without the information associated
> with each character, or data is not presented at all in a way that can be
> tied to a mouse pointer position.
>
> Among other problems, this eliminates our ability to sometimes make software
> that is not accessible at least useable.  Also, it makes it more difficult
> for those of us who write software or web pages to truly know how the
> results actually appear.
>
> We have raised this issue with Microsoft and we will continue raising it.
> Some of this, though, seems to be a product of us becoming more dependent on
> what the operating system or particular software exposes to us.  As I
> understand it, some of the same issues exist in the Apple world where there
> really has not been an OSM in the same way.
>
> Having said all this, there are also cases where screen readers have not
> fully made available the information that is exposed because it involves
> coding for something that is new, and they are challenged to just keep up
> with all of the changes.  It is therefore hard to know to what degree screen
> readers could be doing more.  Also, we've seen cases where certain UIA calls
> that should work cause trouble of their own.  More and more, I am afraid
> that software is going to be accessible or not accessible with very little
> middleground.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:05 PM
> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Deborah Armstrong <armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu>
> Subject: [nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question
>
> I've been using screen readers since the 1980s, and Windows 7 is the first
> time I've actually struggled with this issue. I realized this list was the
> perfect place to ask.
>
> It appears that the so-called "mouse cursor" (what JFW calls the JAWS
> cursor) can no longer freely roam the screen. At first I thought this was
> indeed just an issue with JFW, but in experimenting with NVDA and with
> WindowEyes I see the same behavior.
>
> I can run an application in Windows XP and explore the entire screen or
> active window, depending on whether I restricted the cursor, and pretty much
> review everything text-based that is there.
>
> But in Windows 7 (and presumably 8 and 10 as well) half the time what I
> receive by exploring the screen with a mouse cursor is a jumble. And from
> that jumble text is missing that the screen reader just finished speaking.
>
> This happens on all my machines, in areas where there is no insertion point,
> or real cursor. I can run the same software and get two different results
> between XP and 7, even with NVDA's screen review feature.
>
> The most dramatic example of this is in Outlook, where in XP I can examine a
> message's fields, To, From, date, subject, etc. all using the invisible,
> JAWS, mouse or review cursor.
>
> Reviewing the same message in the same version of outlook in Windows 7, only
> parts of those fields appear to the mouse cursor.
>
> In a window with multiple panes I could usually get to a pane that didn't
> receive focus to read information there. Now it's hit or miss; sometimes I
> can read the info, sometimes the screen reader voices it automatically but I
> never locate it when I review, and sometimes it's easy to review.
>
> As an advanced user, I always made extensive use of the review capabilities
> of my screen reader, and I wish I knew what was going on here and why I
> apparently can no longer read everything onscreen. I'd really like a
> technical explanation of what is happening and what work-arounds people are
> finding?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --Debee
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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail