[nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question

Thu Sep 15 02:36:47 UTC 2016

I agree with this post, but the statement that Apple has never had an 
OSM reminded me that when I worked with the Screen Reader developers at 
IBM, they gave credit for the whole OSM idea to Berkley Systems who used 
it when developing a screen reader for the Apple products.

On 14/09/16 12:58, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs wrote:
> Deborah,
>
> What you describe frustrates many of us.  In the old days, JAWS and
> Window-Eyes used sometimes undocumented hooks to build what they called
> their off-screen model of what was being presented visually.  This was often
> shortened to OSM.  However, Microsoft has been moving toward a more closed
> system requiring that information be retrieved using MSAA or UIA, or
> sometimes Document Object Models and the like.  While this works more
> reliably in some cases and makes the operating system more stable and secure
> in general.  The information we used to get from the OSM is not always
> presented in a way that lets us use the mouse keys.  There are cases when
> text is available but has a chunk of text without the information associated
> with each character, or data is not presented at all in a way that can be
> tied to a mouse pointer position.
>
> Among other problems, this eliminates our ability to sometimes make software
> that is not accessible at least useable.  Also, it makes it more difficult
> for those of us who write software or web pages to truly know how the
> results actually appear.
>
> We have raised this issue with Microsoft and we will continue raising it.
> Some of this, though, seems to be a product of us becoming more dependent on
> what the operating system or particular software exposes to us.  As I
> understand it, some of the same issues exist in the Apple world where there
> really has not been an OSM in the same way.
>
> Having said all this, there are also cases where screen readers have not
> fully made available the information that is exposed because it involves
> coding for something that is new, and they are challenged to just keep up
> with all of the changes.  It is therefore hard to know to what degree screen
> readers could be doing more.  Also, we've seen cases where certain UIA calls
> that should work cause trouble of their own.  More and more, I am afraid
> that software is going to be accessible or not accessible with very little
> middleground.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:05 PM
> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Deborah Armstrong <armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu>
> Subject: [nfbcs] Windows Mouse cursor question
>
> I've been using screen readers since the 1980s, and Windows 7 is the first
> time I've actually struggled with this issue. I realized this list was the
> perfect place to ask.
>
> It appears that the so-called "mouse cursor" (what JFW calls the JAWS
> cursor) can no longer freely roam the screen. At first I thought this was
> indeed just an issue with JFW, but in experimenting with NVDA and with
> WindowEyes I see the same behavior.
>
> I can run an application in Windows XP and explore the entire screen or
> active window, depending on whether I restricted the cursor, and pretty much
> review everything text-based that is there.
>
> But in Windows 7 (and presumably 8 and 10 as well) half the time what I
> receive by exploring the screen with a mouse cursor is a jumble. And from
> that jumble text is missing that the screen reader just finished speaking.
>
> This happens on all my machines, in areas where there is no insertion point,
> or real cursor. I can run the same software and get two different results
> between XP and 7, even with NVDA's screen review feature.
>
> The most dramatic example of this is in Outlook, where in XP I can examine a
> message's fields, To, From, date, subject, etc. all using the invisible,
> JAWS, mouse or review cursor.
>
> Reviewing the same message in the same version of outlook in Windows 7, only
> parts of those fields appear to the mouse cursor.
>
> In a window with multiple panes I could usually get to a pane that didn't
> receive focus to read information there. Now it's hit or miss; sometimes I
> can read the info, sometimes the screen reader voices it automatically but I
> never locate it when I review, and sometimes it's easy to review.
>
> As an advanced user, I always made extensive use of the review capabilities
> of my screen reader, and I wish I knew what was going on here and why I
> apparently can no longer read everything onscreen. I'd really like a
> technical explanation of what is happening and what work-arounds people are
> finding?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --Debee
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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail