[nfbcs] purpose of division

Sat Nov 24 22:40:32 UTC 2018

Hi,

Thank you for providing an overview.
This was not the first time I have found this style of captia, it just seems
to be found more often and spurred irritation.
The site was www.rc10.com and the captia is found after hitting the login
link then the create account link.
There was a chance for an audio challenge but jaws said it was not
available.
Bryan Schulz

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via nfbcs
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2018 2:45 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] purpose of division

Bryan,

When trying to figure out the purpose of your messages I am always left
wondering if you really want an answer to questions or are you just wanting
a chance to take a shot at us.  I think, though, there is a reasonable
chance that trying to answer your questions is worthwhile.

First, I don't know that NFBCS was ever seen as a vehicle for general
advocacy.  That has always been more a function of our national organization
as a whole.  As a long-time NFBCS member and officer, I do feel we serve a
useful purpose by working with specific companies with which we have had
long-term relationships and by trying to make information available.  Also,
people on this list can sometimes be a useful resource in finding
workarounds.  Collectively, we have expertise that can help to understand
why a problem exists and maybe even help to prioritize which problems can
likely be solved easily and which cannot.  

I readily admit that it is sometimes difficult to know where it is best to
bring a concern about accessibility, though.  Sometimes some of us can help
with that.  The cold hard facts, though, are that we still have too many
accessibility issues to successfully deal with every one brought to our
attention.  One of the areas I volunteer in is dealing with Microsoft.
There are so many issues even with Microsoft that we are not able to push
all of them effectively, even though we've seen a good deal of progress.
Also, we need people who actually have the experience with a given problem
to help.  I know nothing about the testing software you mention so can't
deal with specifics of that very effectively.  I don't remember exactly how
you brought the accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software  issues to
NFBCS, but this isn't an issue with which I was familiar.  If you describe
the issue in more detail, I am certainly willing to raise it with Microsoft
whenever I am next in a meeting with them.  Even so, sometimes we have to
decide where to push hardest.  An issue like this sometimes gets less
emphasis than an issue like not being able to enter a password in Outlook
when the credentials screen doesn't get focus because that may affect more
people.  

One also has to understand that there is no law that says everything has to
be accessible.  There are clear laws that require accessibility in specific
cases, but this means that we can't just launch a lawsuit for any
accessibility issue.  Sometimes the law covers institutions that use a given
pice of software and not the actual creators of software, for example.  This
doesn't mean there isn't anything that can be done, but it can affect the
path taken, and it often means that solutions take a long time to find.  We
need help from our members sometimes to really understand a problem and to
document it and help us move forward with it.  

Finally, CAPTCHAs are a real challenge.  Some of us have been trying to
affect their use for a long time.  I share your fear that the use of AIRA,
Be My Eyes, and other such solutions may give some companies an excuse not
to do anything, and this cannot become acceptable.  Audio CAPTCHAs are
pretty common now and you didn't say if the company you dealt with had one
or not.  This is a fairly accepted solution among those who require
CAPTCHAs, but it still leaves out those who have both vision and hearing
loss.  My experience has been that audio CAPTCHAs are more reliable now than
they have been in the past.  I have personally looked at some alternatives
that appear to work but turn out to have limitations.  When you look at the
ability of SIRI, Alexa, and Google Home to analyze and break down the syntax
of questions asked of them, it is clear that most word problem solutions
offer limited protection from robots attempting to gain access to a system.
It is starting to appear that Google is a major player in CAPTCHAs, though.
Many companies use Google's CAPTCHA service.  Possibly that may provide a
useful pressure point.  

Bryan, I realize this is probably not a satisfactory answer.  Also, the
president of NFBCS may have more to say on this as well.  However, laying
out the specific problems you are having, even on this list, can be helpful
by making more of us aware of what people are encountering.  Also,
sometimes, it may turn out somebody else has found a workaround or may be
further along in pursuing a solution.  Finally, sometimes it is helpful to
those of us who volunteer in this area to be reminded of the common
frustrations being encountered.  This can help us know, both as the NFBCS
division and as an organization as a whole, how we can most effectively
approach issues.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz via nfbcs
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 3:49 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [nfbcs] purpose of division

Hi,

This may be a bit off topic because it is actually a web site issue.

In my opinion the cs division doesn't do much especially towards advocacy
with topics that affect using computers/web sites.

Several months ago, there was no interest by the division to address cisco
software or the topic of accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software.

My point today deals with website captia systems.

You have probably had to ask for visual assistance with what happens after
you check the box with the words 'I am not a robot'.

Blind computer users are not going to know which pictures to click when the
instruction says something like click all of the stop signs.

You will probably react by saying use aira and the person will tell you
where to move the mouse.

Well the cheapest plan is about $50 a month for only 60 minutes of help time
and that shouldn't be required.

I had to place an order today to get a great deal and couldn't wait for
someone to respond from the company and was able to create an account after
obtaining visual assistance.

I continue to feel left to flap in the wind by the nfb/nfbcs and it seems
nothing is done once a year other than asking several people to speak at the
division meeting at the convention.

I'm sure this will ruffle feathers but so what, nothing is being done anyway
so tell me the purpose of the division!

Bryan Schulz

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