[blindkid] Braille reading speed-Good News and Bad News

Tue Mar 10 04:49:16 UTC 2009

Who's writing the grant?
:-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 19:24
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Braille reading speed-Good News and Bad News

>I would also like to see the following test applied to both children and
> adults. The only problem is that no one could afford it.
>
> WE all hear that adults learning braille cannot be expected to reach the
> same reading speeds as should be expected of blind children who start
> out reading it early. In a sense, this seems fair in that children who
> read braile from the get-go and become adults presumably have had more
> time to practice than are those adults newly come to braille. However, I
> do not believe that this has truly been put to the test.
>
> I would like to set up a situation wherein blind adults starting from
> scratch would be guaranteed a winning Powerball ticket if they can read
> fluently at three hundred wpm after three months of braille instruction.
> *Then* we could see whether or not our expectations of lowered reading
> rates were truly valid or not. For my part, I can tell you that I'd be
> reading three hundred wpm or better.
>
> Something on that same order might be tried for kids -- say ten thousand
> bucks if after a year they are reading three hundred wpm. (grin)
>
> But none of us can afford to set up that test.
>
> Yee haw!
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Braille reading speed-Good News and Bad News
>
>
> There are such standards for print broken down by grade level & some
> even
> distinguish between oral & silent reading rates.
> Many school districts, such as ours, have their own district benchmarks.
> The problem multi-fold, in that kids/families are not encouraged to
> start
> braille immersion until the kids hit school (if even then - can you
> imagine
> what would happen to print reading rates if sighted kids were not
> exposed to
> print until elementary school?) & to many (perhaps even most) TVI
> educators
> don't believe that braille can be read at the same speed as print - so
> with
> lower expectations & delayed introduction of braille, this ends up being
> a
> self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
> Braille Reading Rate Fluency is rarely addressed at TVI conferences.
> It would be fun & potentially fruitful to pull together a panel of
> national
> experts & put them in a room with some of our kids & adults who do in
> fact
> read fluently to see if real life proof might change their perceptions
> of
> what is possible.
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Debra Baxley" <debrabaxley at bellsouth.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 15:12
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Braille reading speed-Good News and Bad News
>
>
>> Isn't the print-reading standard so many words per minute per grade
>> level?
>> I think that it is sixty words per minute per grade level.
>>
>> Debra
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer
>> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:22 PM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Braille reading speed-Good News and Bad News
>>
>> Dear Craige,
>> The bad news is that in a sense Mike has a strong point. It has been
>> and
>> will be difficult to get a study based on true scientific based
>> methodology
>> and standards. That does not mean some of us are not going to try and
>> get
>> something, but it neither means that, that something will be something
>> in
>> the end that is a true measure or something we want as a standard or
>> believe
>> is reasonable as a standard for all.
>>
>> Do we get one standard for the totally blind child who has had Braille
>> since
>> the crib, another for the totally blind child who had no exposure
>> until
>> school and then got few books, another few standards for the spectrum
>> of
>> low
>> vision and dual readers, another for the one handed, another for those
>> with
>> poor tactile sensitivity, and then those with developmental delays,
>> and
>> then
>> those who have limited finger availability or function on either
>> hand???
>> And
>> then within those also, a standard according to how much Braille they
>> actually got and how much vision or duality they have--with a sort of
>> cross-referencing standard? And what about the effect of low
>> expectations
>> from teachers and parents--how might that be measured as affecting
>> ability
>> to meet the standards or ability in a test subject person's measured
>> speed?
>> These are the problems of which Mike speaks. On the other hand, I do
>> think
>> we can still do something.
>>
>> The good news is that "their", or the established professional
>> circles,
>> have
>> NO true scientific based research EITHER. So, there is really NO
>> REASON
>> NOT
>> to think that any child reading Braille could not meet the same
>> standards
>> as
>> set forth for sighted students--with reasonable allowance for that
>> just
>> like
>> in the sighted population there are some slower readers, and if the
>> case
>> of
>> some other disability or loss of hand enters in--some reasonable
>> thinking
>> in
>> how it might affect. The good news is that, we do have many Braille
>> readers
>> who meet or exceed sighted standards, and they can be pointed out and
>> brought into meetings. When they are brought into meetings and read
>> live
>> and
>> in person it is very effective in raising expectations.
>>
>> And the good news is that we do have a study, that is as good or
>> better
>> than
>> any of "theirs" by Dr. Ruby Ryles that shows the capabilities, when
>> good
>> instruction and early reading is practiced (just like for the
>> sighted),
>> that
>> Braille readers can indeed be competitive with print readers. Her
>> study
>> also
>> shows a link between fluency in Braille and employment outcomes. It is
>> SOMETHING to bring to the table and it has been a strong and world
>> over
>> recognized something.
>>
>> So the yardstick you should use Craige is the yardstick in her class,
>> and
>> it
>> is up to us as parents to demand (not merely ask) that, bring the
>> evidence
>> live, on video and on paper, to the IEP table, and REQUIRE THEM to
>> PROVE
>> their low expectations through SCIENTIFIC DATA (of which they have
>> truly
>> none).
>>
>> The reading charts that have been circulated are not based on
>> scientific
>> data, are from like the 70's, were done narrowly and even those who
>> historically have used the "highest" standard chart(Texas School for
>> the
>> Blind) in their assessment kit have now at our urging reconsidered,
>> admitted
>> to us (perhaps mostly privately so far, but have nonetheless admitted
>> and
>> I
>> have it in writing) IT IS/HAS NOT been TRULY SCIENTIFICALLY BASED, and
>> say
>> oh anyway IT HAS ALWAYS been ONLY a GUIDELINE and SHOULD NOT be used
>> to
>> keep
>> low rates as acceptable (this part they will tell to teachers or
>> parents
>> who
>> write or call and ASK). TSBVI showed genuine interest in helping to
>> alleviate the "misunderstanding" in the profession that the chart they
>> have
>> put out is NOT a TRUE STANDARD, and they also are trying to amend to a
>> higher standard (but in a way can't and have admitted problems and an
>> impossibility in publishing it because it also IS NOT scientifically
>> RESEARCH Based).
>>
>> So there you have the good news and the bad for today. The strongest
>> thing
>> I
>> can tell you Cragie is to do ALL you can imagine to do to NOT accept
>> the
>> low
>> expectations which may come from your child's teachers and to get them
>> uncovered AS low expectations to the rest of the team. This has been
>> done,
>> is being done, and will need to be done yet for sometime. Parent Power
>> is
>> a
>> great power. YOU hold them, you make them, accountable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Craige Snader
>> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:33 AM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Braille reading speed
>>
>> The problem I see with not having reasonable expectation values is
>> that
>> our
>> VI can get by with no accountability for speed of reading and
>> comprehension.
>> They can tell you your kid is doing great and reading 10 words per
>> minute!
>>
>> So I think we would benefit of some sort of yardstick.
>>
>> Craige
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 3:06 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Braille reading speed
>>
>> Ultimately, I see no way for any study on braille reading speed to be
>> truly statistically valid -- too many problems with controls and not
>> enough people for a representative sample.
>>
>> However, anecdotally, I suspect that anyone from our three NFB
>> training
>> centers could show you plenty of people who can read as fast as they
>> can
>> speak and quite a number who can read a good deal faster!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Debby B" <bwbddl at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet BlindKid Mailing List"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:32 AM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Braille reading speed
>>
>>
>> Do we have a source or study on Braille reading speeds? That question
>> has been posed on another group I'm on and I would like to pass on
>> that
>> info. And have it for Winona's school use as well.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Debby
>> bwbddl at yahoo.com
>> www.nfbflorida.org/parents
>>
>> Please support Braille literacy and programs for our youth by
>> sponsoring
>> me in
>> the Motor City March for Independence! Better yet, join the team of
>> the
>> FL Parents of Blind Children!
>> http://www.marchforindependence.org/goto/debbyb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/craige%40homeopac.
>> com
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 3920 (20090309) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 3920 (20090309) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>> ail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/debrabaxley%40bell
>> south.net
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1991 - Release Date:
>> 03/09/09
>> 07:14:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.net 