[Blindmath] hydraulic full screen braille display

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Sun Jul 11 23:43:07 UTC 2010 

Laura,

I don't know which part of your note was addressed to me and what was addressed to others.  My comment that one 
may not always take an approach to learning that parallels what might be done by a sighted person was not meant to 
minimize the need to be able to communicate in a way the professor can understand easily.  Obviously, when I was 
taking math, most of my text results were dictated to a reader, and I learned how to describe my serialized steps in a way 
the reader, and therefore the professor could understand.  However, as you already know, there is a good deal of 
problem solving that does not get handed in, exercises in a book, where you use the exercise to confirm what you know 
and reveal where you might need further study.  

It is good that we have options now, but it does make it harder to decide upon an approach.  While it may not be 
necessary to pick only one approach, I think it could be easy to get lost bouncing back and forth between approaches 
never getting very proficient at any of them.  To my knowledge, we are not going to see a full-page braille display any 
time soon, and multiline displays, while possible, will be expensive.  I believe there are approaches that have not yet 
been tried that could make such a thing more possible, but often approaches that have real promises also have 
drawbacks that are not anticipated.  The debate as to the usefulness of a full page braille display is pretty abstract at 
this point.

Best regards,

Steve

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:28:59 -0500, qubit wrote:

>I agree to the extent that there is sometimes not a choice, but with 
>technology evolving the way it is, it is becoming posssible to get books 
>translated into speech, daisy and braille at a very fast rateIt therefore 
>may become common to get textbooks on time...
>.  As for not expecting to do things the way the sighted person does it, 
>like it or not, your teacher is probably sighted and may find it difficult 
>to serialize the material the way you need it.
>You can learn LaTeX and exchange material that way, but much math is taught 
>visually.  It helps to have a tactile representation of what is going on. 
>And equations with limits and integrals and large fractions and matrices and 
>other grouping symbols that enclose vertical columns of numbers are easier 
>when they are written out spatially.  If you have a picture in your mind 
>what it looks like it is easier to read the braille, but this is why I like 
>the DotsPlus approach -- it won't work on a display, but it does emboss 
>equations out spatially with tactile graphics for the more spatial symbols.
>That way you feel the equations the way the class is learning them and can 
>bypass the awkwardness of building up a picture in your mind.
>A plug for DotsPlus. Perhaps some would disagree.
>Embossers are almost as expensive as braille displays.
>Happy calculating.
>--le






>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
><blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:36 AM
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] hydraulic full screen braille display


>Peter,

>I don't think anyone is saying that more lines are not better, only that one 
>line of braille can work.  When I majored in
>math, I did everything on a braille writer which of course had multiple 
>lines being limited only by the size of the paper.
>However, I found that, at least for me, it was not usually worth trying to 
>line things up vertically as I moved from one
>equasion to another.  I found that it worked to process things linearly, 
>rewriting the equasion as I simplified and solved.
>This could probably be done with a one line display if one developed 
>techniques to move quickly between a previous
>and current version of an equasion.  The same approach won't work for 
>everybody and you will have to do some
>experimenting and learning as you go.  However, don't feel that your 
>solution is to do things just as a sighted person
>would do them.  sometimes you have to find alternatives.  If you are a fair 
>to good braille reader, I think you will want to
>get as much of your material in braille as you can.  To have any hope of 
>doing this, you will need to find  out as far in
>advance which classes you will be taking and what the book list is.  I found 
>that some books were available in braille
>but were older editions of the same books.  In many cases, the changes from 
>one edition to another are very small and
>having an older edition is far better than not having any copy at all.

>Good luck.

>Best regards,

>Steve Jacobson

>On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:52:51 -0500, Peter Wolfe wrote:

>>Ryan and or others:



>>    Good some contribution to what I had to say for once about
>>something with substance. Can you backup your claim? Give us an
>>example of your matrices. I'm not sure what a matrices would be or
>>anything at all for that matter. I guess you are refering to a matrix
>>by chance? Also, my understanding of calculus with Derivatives and
>>integrals have functions and these are for acceleration and velocity
>>with surely other process in a four quadrant x, y and etc. I'd like to
>>see what you can do in a one to four line display in braile and
>>especially just a one line display that will be comprehendable to you
>>in the long run. I remember when I took precalculus I had problems
>>that on print would take up nearly a page or page and a half with a
>>calculuator with sighted assistance with the visual aspects of the
>>beast. Surely you could enlighten us all on your method?
>>     I think the best way of doing mathematics of the advanced level
>>is to see it all in one point going down as you go latterially. I
>>cannt see that horizontally at all other than standard mathematics at
>>all. I'm confused to what you mean and who could properly teach such
>>methods to anyone in a understandable way. I'll find out when I
>>actually take the classes right? This is conforting to someone who
>>likes to be prepared for everything on the ground running. I mean I'm
>>just confused to what aspects are visual and what aren't and from what
>>I've heard from mainly sighted people that it's got lots of   room for
>>interpretation of graphs wit connecting two or so things to make up a
>>unique answer to this issue. How could that be done in another format
>>translated and you create a solution with your answer? Thanks for
>>further information you can shead on this crutial issue.

>>sincerely,
>>Peter

>>On 7/10/10, Ryan Thomas <rlt56 at nau.edu> wrote:
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>>    I've read a lot of comments lately about the difficulty of doing
>>> higher mathematics with a one or even four line braille display.  It's
>>> entirely possible.  I understand that matricies are spacial, but even
>>> they can be visualized in a row and column format using a one line
>>> display.  Outside of matricies most math that I can thing of isn't
>>> complicated by a one line read out.  Derivatives and integrals can
>>> both be done.  In calc III there is a lot of visualization of three
>>> dimentional figures, but even sighted students have to contend with
>>> that issue and it's kind of the nature of the math itself.  I don't
>>> think it's an accurate claim that the more complex math cannot be done
>>> with the one line display.  I think you'll find the same as you
>>> actually take the classes.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>    Ryan
>>>
>>> On 7/9/10, Peter Wolfe <sunspot005 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Le,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I've read about this project some cause my Program for Students
>>>> with Disabilities assistant sent me an e-mail from North Carolina
>>>> State University. Well, I think if you used simplication using
>>>> standard Logic 101 you can tell that it's a dot conjuction meaning
>>>> both must be true necessarily. Well, I think it should be a
>>>> disjunction conjunction with an or cause it's only the braille with
>>>> especially the four line proposal on the table now. Nothing was stated
>>>> about images in the article and that is unfortunately ashame. However,
>>>> it's something to expand our mind around for the time being. Images
>>>> are  very abstract and hard to join together. The proposed 4 line
>>>> display is going to be useful in simple mathematics and some algebra
>>>> from simple deduction and not so much on high end mathematics at this
>>>> stage of development.
>>>>
>>>> On 7/8/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> The following link was the topic of discussion on the sci-tech list a
>>>>> while
>>>>> back. If you want to know more, such as if/when it will be productized,
>>>>> ask
>>>>> Sina Bahram.
>>>>> I wonder if this could do both braille and graphics.  The technology is
>>>>> coming, if people demand it.
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>> Hydraulics Could Enable Fullscreen Braille Display | Gadget Lab |
>>>>> Wired.com
>>>>> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/03/braille-display/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Peter Q. Wolfe, AS
>>>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>>>
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>>-- 
>>Peter Q. Wolfe, AS
>>sunspot005 at gmail.com

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