[Blindmath] new to list with a question

[Bernard M Diaz]

Hi Marsha,

Sadly there is no simple reply to your question "how to convert
.pdf to Nemeth Braille?".

Nemeth is real clever, your problem is not there. Your problem
is with maths notation.  Mostly this is linear, using some 2500
special symbols (according to Stephen Wulfram responsible for
Mathematica ... which you should think about ...). However,
sometimes the notation needs 2D layout; think of quotiants,
summations, integrals, matrices, etc - and these are tricky.
(errr and of course the whole of geometry, topology, etc ...)
Finally, there are the "fiddles" mostly associated with
a dot - sometimes considered a radical point :-) .pdf is one
of these.
(Of course I ignore the actual "maths" in all this).

The problem is that the two aspects of notation, serialisation
(that is getting it into some linear sequence) and the 2d layout
are fiddled by "the dots" into some "standard" that usually
(sadly) isn't.  Thus, the sequential entry of the writer
is first "encoded" into a "standard" (several exist), then that
is "converted" into more or less "standard" visual or other
sequential forms (more dots, of which .tex, .tro, .xhtml, .doc
are just a few to add to the soup).
The problem is (and this is the real problem) you the student
usually do not know how the dots dealt with the notation, and
worse, several dots will have been involved in more or less
complex dotty systems!!
And as a student having a clear "picture" of what I've said
above, and then discovering the processing -  is both the
problem and solution you are trying to discover.

So how to convert .pdfs to Nemeth Braille.  First, understand
above. Then, try to discover how the author of the .pdf generated
it. A .pdf file is written by a computer process, generically
known in the trade as a "renderer" - again several exist. Mostly
their aim is to produce visually the same result.  The problem
is that they fiddle. (e.g. you need "not equal", well, renda
will use overtype and by some means a vertical bar and two en
dashes, while rendu will use a single "unicode" and rendi will
see/take rendu output and render it in renda form).  Often, you
will not be able to discover how this was done and will need
to ask the author, who will not know, but will be able to
tell you on which computer system, and using which software.
(Be alert, "software" and "renderer" are not one and the same
thing, but are close).  Using some combination your toBraille
conversion will be easy, but this is rare.

Now, at this stage most people trying to give you a short
precise answer will say, if you know the author and have the
source you are home and dry; convert to fiddle x; and there is
this software y that will get you Nemeth ... mmm ... the problem
is there are exceptions.  Beware of these, read on.

OK, if you can persuade the author to give you a copy of the
form she used as entry, she should also be able to list what
she meant by any notation she has used.  In most cases except
that based on mathematical logic (of course?) you should now
be possibly home and dry; because here the maths notations are
better standardised (it then becomes a problem of functions,
constant and precedence representation, and variables ... and
the 2D layout issues I alluded to earlier; but that is another
story).  In the case of mathematical logic (and much of post
2K computing is redolent of it - see again Stephen Wulfram's
comments about all this (at:
http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/recent/mathml/ )
this really is tricky; and because those using these are
computer experts - the renderers they use to generate nice
visual representations use every trick in the book (printed
and otherwise) - which is then the problem.

Now you ask youself the question, what renderer should I use?
That is, I have the notation in serial form (as the author
typed or spoke it) and I know what the author's intentions
for the notation are; so how should I "look" at it?  Well,
and this is tricky and difficult! I am not blind, I can read
Braille and Nemeth (very very slowly), I am a deaf to some
sibilants but can cope, I am sort of competent with computing,
maths, and English, but importantly, I don't know the answer.

One of our totally blind students, used Jaws not Braille
(and his sighted teachers coped because they were not
deaf, translated their stuff for him, appreciated his
problems because they listened to the output, and adjusted
their teaching accordingly ... I'll repeat that; and
adjusted their teaching accordingly e.g. did not deliver
in just .pdf form and did not expect him to use it unaided);

Another totally blind student tried to use Nemeth Braille
but suffered because we had no experts to help her with all
this - the sighted teachers were not able to appreciate
ALL the difficulties she had because they had no way of
proofing their transcriptions.   From this what do you
conclude; well - discover what support you have, you will
not be able to go it alone.  If using the dots alone you
WILL run into difficulties, there are NO complete solutions.

I guess, I am also suggesting not using Nemeth Braille.
This is really hard for me to write, for all the reasons
above. And, I really do like it, and it neatly solves
the renderer problem for the blind studying maths - but
while an answer, it is not in my opinion, the solution to
the problem.  Your solution is in the help you will get,
primarily with the actual educators - not the "converters",
and definitely not with the "dots".  However, this is my
conclusion; it is for you to assess whether you can cope
with voice alone, a combination of voice and Braille, or
need the reassurance of full Braille to understand and
then "do" the maths ... and remember this includes being
able to "write" or "say" it yourself (i.e. the answers,
and mathematical expressions, required by the test script
you mention in the posting).

[Genders in all this have been randomised for obvious
reasons ...]

OK that was not what you wanted to read ... So how toBraille?
I do believe that if you can get the copyright sorted out
and "post" the .pdf to this list, then someone here will be
able to produce you a .brl (or other appropriate dot) for
you.  Your problem may be to print/punch this off, but that
is another story.

However, without copyright sorted out they probably will not
want to start! If copyright is sorted, some kind soul will
a) unpick the renderers that have been used, and tell you
or b) convert it for you, or c) tell you where a transcribed
form exists.  If they do any of this, it is reasonable that
this community (the kind soul included) will want to share that
effort. This is why I stress the copyright issue.

All this of course assumes that the expertise does not exist
among your educators (who most likely have the copyright).  It
also assumes that you cannot get the "source" dot form.  In
most cases, the kind souls here will find source form (and I'll
show my teeth by saying that I know a bit about .tex, i.e.
the Latex dot and .tro forms) much easier to deal with.  If you
can get the source, then, whoever tells you about this will have
some computer expertise, may not be deaf, and thus may
be able to go the Jaws (or similar voicing) route and proof
it for you.   There are blind .pdf transcribers (I think; and
that is people not dots) out there that have the Nemeth Braille
skills, but not many (I'd guess), and only one or two (I'd
guess) sighted people with these skills.  The blind ones will
all have problems, for the reasons I outline above.  Thus,
with .pdf you will need at some stage some sighted input to
your education process. If this is the author, good and best,
if they are sympathetic, excellent.  You're mostly home, dry
and doing the maths :-)

[I note, for others reading this, that I do appreciate the
chicken and egg issues here; the problem is how to help Marsha ?]

Else, and you do not have copyright but little support, come
back to this list and ask someone "off list" to help. This
list has many really kind and knowledgeable souls, who will
give you much better help that this long, convoluted, and
tedious reply ... but I hope it helps explain why there isn't
a simple answer and your quest could run and run ...

My very best wishes, Bernard Diaz.

Marsha Drenth wrote:
> Hello listers,
> 
>  
> 
> I am about to return to school after some years away. Currently I am at the
> community college level, but will soon be transferring to a university. My
> biggest hurdle is math. Before all my math courses, I did not use braile or
> the Nemeth Braille code. I was trying to learn by memory, with someone
> reading to me. Now I am some what familiar with the Nemeth code. So here is
> my first question, of probably many. I have a PDF of a practice math test,
> that I will be taking in a few weeks. How would I go about Brailling this
> out? Or making it into a format that I can understand? Any help or
> suggestions are very greatly welcome and appreciated!
> 
>  
> 
> Marsha Drenth
> 
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