[Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?

Sun Apr 3 20:26:23 UTC 2011

Hi Kevn, Dr. Stacey and everyone

Kevin, let me weigh in on a few oof your questions and others feel
free to add info.

MathPlayer version 3, which should be out later this month (Neil
Soiffer is the man behind MathPlayer and he follows and contributes to
this list, so we will be told about it) will support IE9. FireFox
support for MathML is improving and we definitely hvae hopes for
HatmPlayer working with FireFox as well in near future (though Neil
will have to decide and announce that, I have no insight, only know
that Firefox support for math is getting better).
MathML is not something you should ever either read or write, just
like reading html or xhtml is cumbersome and not the right way to
interface math. So you need to find programs that work with MathML and
many of them enable you to move your MathML format between
applications and work with it in the most accessible application (for
instance, scan it in with InftyReader and then export it to Word with
MathType).
MathType is a $57 product from Design Science (www.dessci.com) that is
both a stand alone math editor and also plug into Word.
We canot use its data entry/edit mode at all, but what you can do is,
if you have a document in Word with MathType (MathML) objects in it,
and MathType is installed, you can select the entire document and
press alt-\ and document will convert all expressions to LaTeX, doing
the same thing again will flip the MathML/LaTeX switch again. If the
objects are MathType object, Jaws only says "object" or "blank" when
you come across the mathematical expression in Word, but if MathType
is in LaTeX mode the expression will display.
Similarly, you can enter expressions into a Word document using LaTeX
and it will come out as a MathType object once you translate it back.
The upside to this, is that you can use Word and do not have to worry
about marking up the text itself with TeX tags, the downside is that
many people do not like working with Word and like TeX for accurate
type settigs.
TexCen Center is another open source solution that is pretty
accessible, though you first have to set it up, set up a LaTeX
interpreter like miTeX and then you have to select "screen reader
mode" from the options in TeXNec Center.
I have articles on this and will post them to AccessToScience if
something is not there already.
We users need to approach NVDA and ask for MathML support/MathPlayer
support, so far it has not made it onto their priority list. May be
some people with coding experience could even offer to contribute to
the project of hooking up MathPlayer and NVDA, it should be a very
small amount of work.
Also I hope we can soon announce something regarding a petition to
screen readers and others that we who want better math access, can
sign and deliver to vendors and others we feel need to hear the
message. I am actively working on this with Jose and we hope to have
something out soon for your review and comments.
It's teim we math users got active and made people aware of our challenges.
Thanks
-Birkir

On 4/3/11, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Roopakshi,
>
> No, I've not checked out MathPlayer and sounds like I really need to.
> I wonder how well does it work with Internet Explorer 9 and JAWS 12.
> Are you aware of websites, that have MathML?
>
> Are  there recommended tools to convert LaTeX to MathML?
>
> >From research I've done, it does sound like LaTeX is  easier to write
> and faster to read.
>
> Are there recommended LaTeX editor? Some have suggested using Notepad.
>
> Can you discuss the LaTeX structuring versus math expressions? If not,
> please point me to an article, which goes into detail.
>
> So, MathType is a converter?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin
>
> On 4/3/11, Roopakshi Pathania <r_akshi_tgk at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> Yes, I like the fact that you narrowed your focus.
>> You have got most of it right.
>> Here are a few more points to consider.
>>
>> 1. MathML is much simpler to read with a screen reader; you do not need
>> any
>> prior training to understand MathML rendered with the help of MathPlayer.
>> Have you installed and tested MathPlayer with a web page?
>> 2. You can create MathML without learning how to write its code. LaTeX and
>> even ASCII text can be converted to MathML.
>> 3. LaTeX is both easier to write and faster to read, but involves a steep
>> learning curve.
>> 4. If you do not intend to do a lot of math in the future, you can even
>> skip
>> learning the structuring part of LaTeX and concentrate only on math
>> expressions represented through LaTeX.
>> 5. You can submit assignments by typing math expressions in LaTeX directly
>> into your Word document and then converting them into regular looking math
>> by using MathType.
>>
>> Regards
>> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Kevin Chao <kevinchao89 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?
>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 6:18 AM
>>> I've been researching this area a lot
>>> to figure out what's going to
>>> work the best in  math or science courses.
>>>
>>> It looks like based on activity here,
>>> www.Access2Science.com and
>>> others; MathML and LaTeX
>>> the two formats for this area.
>>>
>>> MathML looks like it's  more for authoring and
>>> presenting content,
>>> which requires specific browsers, plug-ins, and screen
>>> readers.
>>> There's a lot of syntax and tagging that's involved, which
>>> very much
>>> looks like HTML.
>>>
>>> LaTeX seems to be what publishers and users use to produce
>>> and consume
>>> and is a much friendly format to work with. It seems
>>> that LaTeX has
>>> been around for much longer and is a better area to place
>>> more time
>>> and energy on.
>>>
>>> Am I completely off base with MathML and LaTeX?
>>>
>>> Please clarify of what's best to use when working with math
>>> and
>>> science college courses.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> On 4/2/11, Alex Hall <mehgcap at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > That will be quite helpful, thanks!
>>> >
>>> > On 4/2/11, John Gardner <john.gardner at orst.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> If you want to learn math Latex, there is a good
>>> tutorial and a basically
>>> >> complete set of Latex math tables linked from
>>> >> http://www.access2science.com
>>> >> John
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of PR Stanley
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:57 PM
>>> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in
>>> mathematics
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and
>>> math in graphics?
>>> >>
>>> >> The Latex source on wikibook and wikipedia is an
>>> absolute godsend.
>>> >> it really isn't that hard to learn Latex. If
>>> anyone need to learn it
>>> >> for a college/university course, please don't
>>> hesitate to get in
>>> >> touch with me offlist.
>>> >> Paul
>>> >>
>>> >> At 23:31 02/04/2011, you wrote:
>>> >>>I have run into this on many sites, including
>>> bitg ones like wikibooks
>>> >>>and wikipedia, so it would be no small thing
>>> for them to convert. It
>>> >>>is a shame that this will not work!
>>> >>>
>>> >>>On 4/2/11, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> > Hi
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > MathPlayer can only render MathML (not
>>> LaTeX) at this time, and only
>>> >>> > into speech (not into braille). It will
>>> show refreshable braille on
>>> >>> > the screen, but it will be the text
>>> string that it speaks, such as
>>> >>> > "Ay squared minus 3 x."
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > A LaTeX source will not help in this
>>> regard, and MathML is not very
>>> >>> > suitable for alt text.
>>> >>> > I believe there are Jaws scripts being
>>> developed that turn LaTeX
>>> >>> > source code into spoken math (Jose knows
>>> more on this and I can dig up
>>> >>> > all the info and send it to you
>>> off-list).
>>> >>> > That would probably be your best bet.
>>> >>> > The other option would be to encourage
>>> the page designers to use
>>> >>> > MathML to create the images, and you can
>>> use MathPlayer to play them.
>>> >>> > They can check out MathJax (http://www.mathjax.org) for a way to
>>> >>> > create good looking math based on MathML
>>> that works in every browser
>>> >>> > that support Javascript.
>>> >>> > None of the MathML solutions will get you
>>> Nemeth code, however, a Word
>>> >>> > document with the math in it can be
>>> translated to Nemeth and embossed
>>> >>> > via Duxbury DBT 11.1 or ViewPlus TSS.
>>> >>> > hth
>>> >>> > -Birkir
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > On 4/2/11, PR Stanley <prstanley at ntlworld.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> >> could you send us a sample?
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> At 22:49 02/04/2011, you wrote:
>>> >>> >>>Hi all,
>>> >>> >>>I am trying to read some math
>>> notation. As is increasingly common,
>>> >>> >>>this notation is in a graphic and
>>> has its alt tag set to what appears
>>> >>> >>>to be latex notation. I downloaded
>>> Math Player, but it does not even
>>> >>> >>>show up in the list of add-ons
>>> (this is ie8, and I did restart the
>>> >>> >>>browser). I just want to read math
>>> without all the backslashes,
>>> >>> >>>braces, and commands (vec, frac,
>>> and all those). As it stands, I
>>> >>> >>>usually have no idea what the
>>> image is trying to say, which, of
>>> >>> >>>course, does me no good at all. I
>>> am using jaws 12.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>--
>>> >>> >>>Have a great day,
>>> >>> >>>Alex (msg sent from GMail
>>> website)
>>> >>> >>>mehgcap at gmail.com;
>>> http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
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>>> >>>--
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>>> >>>Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
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>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Have a great day,
>>> > Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>> > mehgcap at gmail.com;
>>> http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>> >
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