[Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?
Kevin Chao
kevinchao89 at gmail.com
Sun Apr 3 20:55:26 UTC 2011
HI -Birkir,
So, MathPlayer is translator for MathML, which allows it to be
presented in a friendly format? What makes it so that sighted users
can use just a browser, while screen reader users need things like
MathPlayer? Will there be a time, where MathPlayer data entry/edit
mode will be accessible? Is that an issue on Design Science's end or
AT venders?
What can Mozilla do to increase math accessibility?
Sounds like InftyReader is a must have, which I'll read about more and
check out.
So, MathType is another software that's needed? What does that do exactly?
I've set up miTeX . Looks like I should grab TexCen Center and set
that up as well?
Yes, it would be absolutely fantastic if you can post all the articles
you can to Access2Science.com.
NVAccess is more than interested in receiving contribution, working
towards math accessibility, but like to know best way for screen
reader to read math (basic and advanced). What would be best things
to propose for NvAccess to include in NVDA?
A petition in increasing math accessibility, AT venders to work more
closely with Design Science on MathPlayer, browsers to build in math
accessibility, and more awareness of it all sounds absolutely
fantastic and needed. Once I have a better understanding of current
landscape, I'm more than glad to help contribute in any way.
We need STEM accessibility!
Thanks,
Kevin
On 4/3/11, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Kevn, Dr. Stacey and everyone
>
> Kevin, let me weigh in on a few oof your questions and others feel
> free to add info.
>
> MathPlayer version 3, which should be out later this month (Neil
> Soiffer is the man behind MathPlayer and he follows and contributes to
> this list, so we will be told about it) will support IE9. FireFox
> support for MathML is improving and we definitely hvae hopes for
> HatmPlayer working with FireFox as well in near future (though Neil
> will have to decide and announce that, I have no insight, only know
> that Firefox support for math is getting better).
> MathML is not something you should ever either read or write, just
> like reading html or xhtml is cumbersome and not the right way to
> interface math. So you need to find programs that work with MathML and
> many of them enable you to move your MathML format between
> applications and work with it in the most accessible application (for
> instance, scan it in with InftyReader and then export it to Word with
> MathType).
> MathType is a $57 product from Design Science (www.dessci.com) that is
> both a stand alone math editor and also plug into Word.
> We canot use its data entry/edit mode at all, but what you can do is,
> if you have a document in Word with MathType (MathML) objects in it,
> and MathType is installed, you can select the entire document and
> press alt-\ and document will convert all expressions to LaTeX, doing
> the same thing again will flip the MathML/LaTeX switch again. If the
> objects are MathType object, Jaws only says "object" or "blank" when
> you come across the mathematical expression in Word, but if MathType
> is in LaTeX mode the expression will display.
> Similarly, you can enter expressions into a Word document using LaTeX
> and it will come out as a MathType object once you translate it back.
> The upside to this, is that you can use Word and do not have to worry
> about marking up the text itself with TeX tags, the downside is that
> many people do not like working with Word and like TeX for accurate
> type settigs.
> TexCen Center is another open source solution that is pretty
> accessible, though you first have to set it up, set up a LaTeX
> interpreter like miTeX and then you have to select "screen reader
> mode" from the options in TeXNec Center.
> I have articles on this and will post them to AccessToScience if
> something is not there already.
> We users need to approach NVDA and ask for MathML support/MathPlayer
> support, so far it has not made it onto their priority list. May be
> some people with coding experience could even offer to contribute to
> the project of hooking up MathPlayer and NVDA, it should be a very
> small amount of work.
> Also I hope we can soon announce something regarding a petition to
> screen readers and others that we who want better math access, can
> sign and deliver to vendors and others we feel need to hear the
> message. I am actively working on this with Jose and we hope to have
> something out soon for your review and comments.
> It's teim we math users got active and made people aware of our challenges.
> Thanks
> -Birkir
>
> On 4/3/11, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Roopakshi,
>>
>> No, I've not checked out MathPlayer and sounds like I really need to.
>> I wonder how well does it work with Internet Explorer 9 and JAWS 12.
>> Are you aware of websites, that have MathML?
>>
>> Are there recommended tools to convert LaTeX to MathML?
>>
>> >From research I've done, it does sound like LaTeX is easier to write
>> and faster to read.
>>
>> Are there recommended LaTeX editor? Some have suggested using Notepad.
>>
>> Can you discuss the LaTeX structuring versus math expressions? If not,
>> please point me to an article, which goes into detail.
>>
>> So, MathType is a converter?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> On 4/3/11, Roopakshi Pathania <r_akshi_tgk at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>
>>> Yes, I like the fact that you narrowed your focus.
>>> You have got most of it right.
>>> Here are a few more points to consider.
>>>
>>> 1. MathML is much simpler to read with a screen reader; you do not need
>>> any
>>> prior training to understand MathML rendered with the help of MathPlayer.
>>> Have you installed and tested MathPlayer with a web page?
>>> 2. You can create MathML without learning how to write its code. LaTeX
>>> and
>>> even ASCII text can be converted to MathML.
>>> 3. LaTeX is both easier to write and faster to read, but involves a steep
>>> learning curve.
>>> 4. If you do not intend to do a lot of math in the future, you can even
>>> skip
>>> learning the structuring part of LaTeX and concentrate only on math
>>> expressions represented through LaTeX.
>>> 5. You can submit assignments by typing math expressions in LaTeX
>>> directly
>>> into your Word document and then converting them into regular looking
>>> math
>>> by using MathType.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Kevin Chao <kevinchao89 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?
>>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 6:18 AM
>>>> I've been researching this area a lot
>>>> to figure out what's going to
>>>> work the best in math or science courses.
>>>>
>>>> It looks like based on activity here,
>>>> www.Access2Science.com and
>>>> others; MathML and LaTeX
>>>> the two formats for this area.
>>>>
>>>> MathML looks like it's more for authoring and
>>>> presenting content,
>>>> which requires specific browsers, plug-ins, and screen
>>>> readers.
>>>> There's a lot of syntax and tagging that's involved, which
>>>> very much
>>>> looks like HTML.
>>>>
>>>> LaTeX seems to be what publishers and users use to produce
>>>> and consume
>>>> and is a much friendly format to work with. It seems
>>>> that LaTeX has
>>>> been around for much longer and is a better area to place
>>>> more time
>>>> and energy on.
>>>>
>>>> Am I completely off base with MathML and LaTeX?
>>>>
>>>> Please clarify of what's best to use when working with math
>>>> and
>>>> science college courses.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
>>>> On 4/2/11, Alex Hall <mehgcap at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > That will be quite helpful, thanks!
>>>> >
>>>> > On 4/2/11, John Gardner <john.gardner at orst.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> If you want to learn math Latex, there is a good
>>>> tutorial and a basically
>>>> >> complete set of Latex math tables linked from
>>>> >> http://www.access2science.com
>>>> >> John
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> >> On
>>>> >> Behalf Of PR Stanley
>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:57 PM
>>>> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in
>>>> mathematics
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and
>>>> math in graphics?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The Latex source on wikibook and wikipedia is an
>>>> absolute godsend.
>>>> >> it really isn't that hard to learn Latex. If
>>>> anyone need to learn it
>>>> >> for a college/university course, please don't
>>>> hesitate to get in
>>>> >> touch with me offlist.
>>>> >> Paul
>>>> >>
>>>> >> At 23:31 02/04/2011, you wrote:
>>>> >>>I have run into this on many sites, including
>>>> bitg ones like wikibooks
>>>> >>>and wikipedia, so it would be no small thing
>>>> for them to convert. It
>>>> >>>is a shame that this will not work!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>On 4/2/11, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> > Hi
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > MathPlayer can only render MathML (not
>>>> LaTeX) at this time, and only
>>>> >>> > into speech (not into braille). It will
>>>> show refreshable braille on
>>>> >>> > the screen, but it will be the text
>>>> string that it speaks, such as
>>>> >>> > "Ay squared minus 3 x."
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > A LaTeX source will not help in this
>>>> regard, and MathML is not very
>>>> >>> > suitable for alt text.
>>>> >>> > I believe there are Jaws scripts being
>>>> developed that turn LaTeX
>>>> >>> > source code into spoken math (Jose knows
>>>> more on this and I can dig up
>>>> >>> > all the info and send it to you
>>>> off-list).
>>>> >>> > That would probably be your best bet.
>>>> >>> > The other option would be to encourage
>>>> the page designers to use
>>>> >>> > MathML to create the images, and you can
>>>> use MathPlayer to play them.
>>>> >>> > They can check out MathJax (http://www.mathjax.org) for a way to
>>>> >>> > create good looking math based on MathML
>>>> that works in every browser
>>>> >>> > that support Javascript.
>>>> >>> > None of the MathML solutions will get you
>>>> Nemeth code, however, a Word
>>>> >>> > document with the math in it can be
>>>> translated to Nemeth and embossed
>>>> >>> > via Duxbury DBT 11.1 or ViewPlus TSS.
>>>> >>> > hth
>>>> >>> > -Birkir
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > On 4/2/11, PR Stanley <prstanley at ntlworld.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >> could you send us a sample?
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> At 22:49 02/04/2011, you wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>Hi all,
>>>> >>> >>>I am trying to read some math
>>>> notation. As is increasingly common,
>>>> >>> >>>this notation is in a graphic and
>>>> has its alt tag set to what appears
>>>> >>> >>>to be latex notation. I downloaded
>>>> Math Player, but it does not even
>>>> >>> >>>show up in the list of add-ons
>>>> (this is ie8, and I did restart the
>>>> >>> >>>browser). I just want to read math
>>>> without all the backslashes,
>>>> >>> >>>braces, and commands (vec, frac,
>>>> and all those). As it stands, I
>>>> >>> >>>usually have no idea what the
>>>> image is trying to say, which, of
>>>> >>> >>>course, does me no good at all. I
>>>> am using jaws 12.
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>--
>>>> >>> >>>Have a great day,
>>>> >>> >>>Alex (msg sent from GMail
>>>> website)
>>>> >>> >>>mehgcap at gmail.com;
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
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>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
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>>>> >>>--
>>>> >>>Have a great day,
>>>> >>>Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>> >>>mehgcap at gmail.com;
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>> >>>
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Have a great day,
>>>> > Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>> > mehgcap at gmail.com;
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>> >
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