[Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?

Wed Apr 6 17:06:30 UTC 2011

If you would please refrain from wasting our time by ranting like a
lunatic and instead accept other people's oppinions as being viable I
think we'd all appreciate it Paul.

On 4/6/11, PR Stanley <prstanley at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Funny, when I asked for his help last time a certain list member
> sought to deliberately blacken my name on this list, I didn't' even
> get a reply to my email. Now he is lecturing us on list protocol.
> I get it in the neck for helping the blind community, for simply
> trying to share with them ideas that have helped me gain some level
> of independence.. I see it as a sort of moral duty.
> unfortunately, It seems some members of the blind community are more
> than happy being exploited and treated like fools. Oh yes, they talk
> about independence and all that rot, but when they're offered the
> choice, they reject it violently and run back to their slave masters.
> They seem only to accept help when it comes with a price tag attached
> to it. When the same help is offered to them for free they treat it
> with utmost suspicion.
> I am no psychologist but I wonder if this could have something to do
> with disabled people being treated like second class citizens since
> time immemorial.
> Well, don't use LaTeX then. Far too many punctuation marks and
> strangely named macros, far too complicated for blind people. your
> time would be much more fruitfully spent jumping up and down and
> shouting yourself horse about the injustice of not having a system
> simple enough for the blind.
> Paul
> At 02:11 06/04/2011, you wrote:
>>Hello everybody:
>>
>>I am not a mathematician -- just the lowly list owner.  There has
>>been some back and forth here, healthy discussion is, of course
>>fine.  However, some has seemed a bit more heated then that.
>>
>>I would remind people of a couple things, first we all have
>>different styles, preferences, etc., so what appeals to you, or
>>makes sense to you may not be so for somebody else.  Some people's
>>positions come across as absolute, and that there is just one way to
>>do things.  Remember, this is true for you, but may not be so for
>>everybody else.
>>
>>It is good that we have options and each of us must pick what works
>>best for him/herself.
>>
>>David Andrews, List Owner
>>
>>
>>
>>At 07:48 PM 4/5/2011, you wrote:
>>>    I feel that Andrew's comments have been interpreted very poorly by
>>>members of this list.  Firstly, consider that he is on this list, as
>>>all of us are, to increase the use and readability of math for the
>>>blind.  I'm certain that he would not be doing what he can to benefit
>>>the movement from the perspective that blind people are lesser and
>>>should sit and do what they're told.  Such comments are not only rude,
>>>but entirely unhelpful.
>>>    In a well reasoned and well worded argument, it was pointed out
>>>that LaTeX is simply inefficient to read.  It is.  With a screen
>>>reader the barrage of punctuation is difficult to sort out and in
>>>braille there's often an expantion of symbols into words for
>>>punctuation marks which only increases the size of the math needing to
>>>be represented.  There are more efficient ways that are a good deal
>>>more intuitive to people.  Pointing that out is both sensable and a
>>>call for the blind to demand more.  It should not be the case where we
>>>accept what the sighted would not when it prevents a large portion of
>>>our community from accessing math simply.  As a college student
>>>learning mathematics it is not pleasurable or even possible in some
>>>cases to add learning LaTeX to a scholastic course load.
>>>    Just because something is possible does not mean it is efficient
>>>and if there are better ways for your average blind individual to read
>>>math we need to explore them  rather than attacking those who make
>>>such valid points.
>>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>    Ryan Thomas
>>>
>>>On 4/4/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
>>> > I agree with Paul 100% on this one. I use LaTeX for pretty much
>>> > everything now. Class notes, homework and exams, professional papers
>>> > and
>>> > other writings, etc. I even use it when working math problems to keep
>>> > track of what I'm doing. I present material in hard and/or soft copy by
>>> > converting to pdf and/or providing LaTeX source depending on the
>>> > preference of the group or individual, and they're always perfectly
>>> > happy with the results. I ask people for LaTeX source when I want to
>>> > read something they've produced if I happen to know that they used
>>> > LaTeX
>>> > to produce it, and they're always more than happy to provide it. I've
>>> > even had tutors and other instructors help me with math questions by
>>> > looking at my LaTeX. Those that know it already have no trouble, and
>>> > those that have never seen it say that it's clear enough they can
>>> > almost
>>> > always tell what it is I'm trying to do as far as the math goes. In the
>>> > event that they can't, I can always generate a pdf.
>>> >
>>> > As for LaTeX being hard to read because of macros or what ever else,
>>> > I've found that in at least 90% of cases that's not a problem. Almost
>>> > everyone I know uses the amsmath and/or the amssym packages, and the
>>> > macros that do appear don't detract from the readability of the
>>> > material
>>> > itself.
>>> > --
>>> > "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
>>> > Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>
>>
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>
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