[Blindmath] An Example of How MathML Pronunciation Could be Wrong

Tue Apr 19 19:23:47 UTC 2011

I think you're being a bit harsh on MathML in this case, MathML is 
getting nothing wrong and your comparison is wrong as the computer 
(mathplayer has said nothing wrong), everything is identified correctly.

If we're going to start pointing fingers, may be the unicode consortium 
got the name wrong. See the unicode code charts (visit 
http://www.unicode.org) for the name of the character or may be a link 
which gives the same and more information 
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2223/index.htm.

There again might we point the finger at you, mathplayer can't help if 
you don't know the names of the characters... :-)

Joking to one side, mathplayer did everything right, it didn't get a 
character wrong, it just used the unicode name given to the character. 
Whether the name is potentially confusing is another matter, and may 
actually be a wider issue for spoken mathematics rather than just mathml.

Michael Whapples
On -10/01/37 20:59, Roopakshi Pathania wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Neil,
>
>
>
> I think that the expression is pronounced the same way I
> wrote even when using the “Speak Expression” item from the right-click menu.
>
> I know that you have been working hard to get the pronunciation
> correct; this is in no way a criticism of MathPlayer or you.
>
> The Wikipedia entry that you point to has only one case
> where the “divide” word suits the occasion.
>
> And that is perhaps the biggest disadvantage of relying solely
> on MathML by a blind user. It has many advantages too, but for now I’ll
> complete the thought that was behind my observation in the first place.
>
> The difference between MathML and LaTeX can be compared to
> the difference between computer vision and raw sensory feedback (in the form of
> sound or touch).
>
> A bunch of algorithms will identify an object as a person
> based on the matching characteristics from its database. But what if that turns
> out to be an alien? Hindsight analysis will do no good in that case.
>
> OK, back to the main point. While I fully support MathML, I
> can’t agree with a number of people who have expressed dissatisfaction with
> reading LaTeX math. If I were someone who was studying Bayes’ theorem for the
> first time using MathML, I would automatically have taken the “divide” to mean
> division, and not a vertical bar.
>
> On the other hand while introducing a new symbol, teachers
> and textbook authors often compare the structure of the new symbol to something
> that is previously recognizable, like guess what… a vertical bar. Not to mention
> that if I were again someone who was studying Bayes’ theorem for the first time
> using LaTeX, I would instantly get a picture of a vertical bar and be able put
> my own interpretation on it irrespective of the context. I would also be able
> to describe the same symbol to someone who is writing an exam for me
>
> But I think you understand this; this was mostly for those
> who don’t realize the benefits of reading math in LaTeX.
>
>
>
> I guess that all this would be irrelevant once screen reader
> vendors start supporting Nemeth or other math codes for displaying MathML, in which
> case, those who can’t afford Braille displays would be in the same or perhaps a
> worse situation.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Sent from my Lenovo ThinkPad
>
> --- On Sun, 4/17/11, Neil Soiffer<NeilS at dessci.com>  wrote:
>
> From: Neil Soiffer<NeilS at dessci.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] An Example of How MathML Pronunciation Could be Wrong
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, April 17, 2011, 10:55 PM
>
> Please don't mistake what MathPlayer or some other application speaks
> for some MathML as being inherent in the MathML.  Each application
> chooses its own words.  In fact, MathPlayer 3 has several ways to
> speak expressions.  Also, be aware that the vertical bar is very
> ambiguous in math.  See [1] for some examples.
>
> This summer we will start adding subject area rules for math
> notations.  We are starting with geometry and will likely move to
> probability and statistics next, but it partly depends upon the
> interests and successes of the student who will doing it.  Once we do
> add probability, and the listener or author of the content says that
> this is probability, then it would be read better.  Perhaps like
> "Probability of ay given b equals (pause) fraction probability of b
> given ay  times probability of ay (pause) over probability of b
> (pause) end fraction" when the speech target is "blind" -- the
> "fraction/end fraction" would be absent when the speech target is
> "learning disability" or "low vision".  In a terse mode, "probability"
> would like be just "p".  If the AT supports SAPI or SSML, the "ay"
> will be a pronunciation tag for the long "a" sound (just like it is
> now).  If MathPlayer doesn't know the context, it needs to fall back
> to a generic reading like you give (although what you wrote seems to
> be missing the "p"s).
>
> Neil Soiffer
> Senior Scientist
> Design Science, Inc.
> www.dessci.com
> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~
>
>
> [1]  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Roopakshi Pathania
> <r_akshi_tgk at yahoo.com>  wrote:
>> I have always known this, but while looking through websites using MathML for my article for Access2Science, I found an actual example.
>>
>> The equation here is the statement for Bayes' Theorem in MathML as well as in LaTeX.
>> Those who don't know Bayes' theorem, but have studied with the help of MathML and LaTeX will be able to spot the difference.
>> Note that I cannot say whether the irregularity is due to the way it is pronounced, or due to the underlying code.
>> In any case, this is just an example to show that MathML can on occasions be pronounced incorrectly, and not a signal to spark another MathML vs LaTeX debate.
>>
>> open  cap ay divides cap bee  close equals. fraction  cap pr  open  cap bee  divides  cap ay  close  cap pr  open  cap ay  close over,  cap pr  open  cap bee  close, end fraction.
>>
>> http://xbeta.org/wiki/show/Bayes%27+theorem
>>
>> P(A|B) =frac{P(B|A)\, P(A)}{P(B)}.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes'_theorem
>>
>> Sent from my Lenovo ThinkPad
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