[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Wed Nov 16 20:45:37 UTC 2011

My worry is that I am not sure that screen readers all necessarily
announce black cells, they may simply skipover them to the next
non-blank cell. If this isn't the case for any screen reader, there is
no worry. If there is, this is a huge problem, when you need to be
absolutely sure which cells in a matrix are blank.
Also I thought that entering, say a "--" would look visually appealing
enough, thogh I don't know this.
That is the source of my point. If I am working with a 4 by 4 matrix
with blanks in it, I want to be sure that it is a 4 by 4 set of cells
and I can identify the contents of each, even if it is blank.

On 11/16/11, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com> wrote:
> I think the main point missed here is that NVDA can do cell navigation, OK
> may be not quite as nice (in some peoples' minds) but still perfectly
> accessible. I am sure if it became such an issue someone would feel pushed
> enough to add it to opensource products like NVDA and then that might push
> the commercial offerings to catch up as they would be lacking.
>
> Michael Whapples
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram at nc.rr.com>
> To: <john.gardner at orst.edu>; "'Blind Math list for those interested in
> mathematics'" <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
>
>> That's cell navigation, no? in other words, that read 2, 5, 8 if you were
>> navigating down a keypad, instead of reading, 1,2,3:
>> 4,5,6: 7,8,9.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of John Gardner
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:39 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> Hmmm, it is news to me.  I use CTRL-ALT arrows to navigate html tables
>> with
>> NVDA all the time.  I know the NVDA folks are developing richer table
>> navigation, but this row/column navigation method works perfectly well.  I
>> actually prefer NVDA for this purpose and lots of other web tasks,
>> particularly filling out forms.  It is really stable compared to the other
>> screen readers.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:51 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> I just confirmed this. NVDA does not currently have row/column reading,
>> but
>> I'll be requesting this, today.
>>
>> I'm discussing the matter with some folks on twitter. *glances at previous
>> statement, and shakes head* never thought I'd say that,
>> before.
>>
>> Ken, thanks again for the heads up.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:40 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>>
>> No what I mean is a way to read the entire row for example 7 8 9 NVDA
>> doesn't seem to have that feature  as of yet.  In jaws they use Microsoft
>> key , for rows and Microsoft key . for columns  It is just an easy way to
>> read the whole set of numbers and.  The cell navigation is a good as well
>> which it seems all the screen readers handle that.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:30 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> I am not sure what keys you mean.
>>
>> To navigate by cells in NVDA you use ctrl+alt+<cursors> to move around the
>> table. Also users of the Mac and voiceover have this sort of navigation.
>>
>> If you mean a way of defining which order NVDA reads through a table when
>> doing continuous reading, then there is no option for that. However I
>> would
>> imagine such a feature would be fairly simple to be added for those who
>> are
>> familiar with NVDA code.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 15 Nov 2011, at 19:03, Ken Perry wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with you in essence but when your designing something for a
>>> class it would be nice if the students who can not afford jaws can
>>> still get good access like I said I hope I am missing the keys for
>>> NVDA but I haven't found them yet.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:35 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> Wait a minute, NVDA doesn't have row/column reading?
>>>
>>> First off, let's not code to the lowest common denominator: we have
>>> enough of that in this field.
>>>
>>> I can't speak to system access, but I will start contacting NVDA guys
>>> right now about this issue.
>>>
>>> Ken, thanks for the heads up. I just assumed they had something so basic.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:23 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree except for one problem.  With jaws you can use windows , and
>>> windows . to read the row or column in order but I have yet to find a
>>> way to do that with either system access or nvda.  My first method
>>> allows you to read a whole row no matter the screen reader so I guess
>>> it depends if you need to be able to read a whole row of the numbers.
>>> Maybe you could add this feature fast enough to NVDA though, if it is
>>> not there and I just have not found it.
>>>
>>> OH all the screen readers seem to read the table version of the matrix
>>> fine by cells its just the row and column reading that I like with
>>> Jaws if you have to use tables.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:05 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> Where as a simple html table would be ideal for both.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:50 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> I am assuming that the blind student can scroll up and down through
>>> the rows using the up and down arrow keys, encountering only three
>>> values with each press of the arrow key.
>>>
>>> Another alternative would be to put all nine values for a 3x3 matrix
>>> on the same line with some sort of delimiter to indicate that each
>>> group of 3 values represents a row.
>>>
>>> However, there is a problem with this also. Despite the need to
>>> accommodate blind students in the course, I must also make certain
>>> that I accommodate the needs of sighted students. Sighted students are
>>> accustomed to seeing matrices written in rows and columns and all of
>>> the textbooks present matrices in that format. I must use a format
>>> that works for both the blind students and the sighted students, which
>>> is one of the reasons that I like this approach. It should work for
>>> blind students and it looks nominally correct for sighted students. Not
>> ideal for either but adequate for both.
>>>
>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The good part is if you have it in this kind of form and the student
>>>> has another form he or she likes better its not hard to reparse this.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the
>>>> matrix, I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a
>>>> matrix follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate
>>>> the columns and the rows without having to space through the
>>>> characters individually.
>>>>
>>>> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the
>>>>> punctuation
>>>>> level:
>>>>> 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get
>>>>> you into NVDA's settings.
>>>>> 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>>>>> 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and
>>>>> then press enter.
>>>>> 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
>>>>> punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
>>>>> 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none,
>>>>> some, most, and all.
>>>>> 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>>>>> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into
>>>>> the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know
>>>>> it
>>>> yet.
>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>> Greg W.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day
>>>>> of all days.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do I make that setting?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ken
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>>>>>>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard
>>>>>>> Baldwin
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>>>>>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows.
>>>>>>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left
>>>>>>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down
>>>>>>> arrow is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no
>>>>>>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way
>>>>>>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page
>>>>>>>> with a 3 by
>>>>>>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>  elements don't get
>>> converted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <html>
>>>>>>>> <body>
>>>>>>>> <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>>>>>>>> <pre>
>>>>>>>> 3 | 9 | 8
>>>>>>>> 4 | 6 | 5
>>>>>>>> 6 | 4 | 8
>>>>>>>>     </pre>
>>>>>>>> </body>
>>>>>>>> </html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks Ken,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I
>>>>>>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>  and put them in XHTML
>>>>>>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and
>>>>>>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the
>>>>>>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to
>>>>>>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed matrices.
>>>>>>>> If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those characters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>>>>>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The
>>>>>>>>> calculator still exists but the newest version is not that
>>>>>>>>> accessible. I would just type the matrix out in a text editor
>>>>>>>>> and space the
>>>> columns.
>>>>>>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row
>>>>>>>>> and put it under the other and move things around.  I know that
>>>>>>>>> is not pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted
>>>>>>>>> folks
>>> did it.
>>>>>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in
>>>>>>>>> my head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I
>>>>>>>>> was trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get
>>>>>>>>> back to that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on
>>>>>>>>> the simple text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to
>>>>>>>>> easily see all the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used
>>>>>>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking
>>>>>>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML
>>>>>>>>> can be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page.
>>>>>>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes
>>>>>>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a
>>>>>>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web
>>>>>>>>> page.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>>>>>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>>>>>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>>>>>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a
>>>>>>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav
>>>>>>>>> Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>>>>>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and
>>>>>>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the
>>>>>>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>>>>>>>>>>> the Spring
>>>>>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>>>>>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in
>>>>>>>>>>> game and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of
>>>>>>>>>>> matrix and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian
>>>>>>>>>>> principles in games and simulations. Also
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> covers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> code optimization.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even
>>>>>>>>>>> if there
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these
>>>>>>>>>>> topics (which I
>>>>>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>>>>>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard
>>>>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> reader), I
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line
>>>>>>>>>>> Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/bal
>>>>>>>>>>> dw in/> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>>>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http:
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>>>>>>>>>> baldwin%40d<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> g/baldwin%40d>
>>>>>>>>>> ic
>>>>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> kperry%40blin<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
>>>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>>>> rg/kperry%40blin>
>>>>>>>>> ks
>>>>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> baldwin%40dic<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
>>>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>>>> rg/baldwin%40dic>
>>>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>> kperry%40blinks<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>> org/kperry%40blinks>
>>>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> baldwin%40dickb<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>> org/baldwin%40dickb>
>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>>>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> fb net.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
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>>>>>>> kperry%40blinksoft.co<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_
>>>>>>> nf
>>>>>>> bnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co>
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>> at h_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> ne t.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
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>>>>> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmat
>>>>> h_ nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>> Blindmath:
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>>>> s
>>>> oft.co
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>
>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
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