[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Wed Nov 16 23:21:57 UTC 2011

What about using "NULL" to indicate that the blank cell represents a 
null value? Or "0" which, I suppose in this context would mean pretty 
much the same thing... Depending.

Just a thought. /smile/

I am loving this discussion!

Tami

On 11/16/2011 12:45 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> My worry is that I am not sure that screen readers all necessarily
> announce black cells, they may simply skipover them to the next
> non-blank cell. If this isn't the case for any screen reader, there is
> no worry. If there is, this is a huge problem, when you need to be
> absolutely sure which cells in a matrix are blank.
> Also I thought that entering, say a "--" would look visually appealing
> enough, thogh I don't know this.
> That is the source of my point. If I am working with a 4 by 4 matrix
> with blanks in it, I want to be sure that it is a 4 by 4 set of cells
> and I can identify the contents of each, even if it is blank.
>
>
> On 11/16/11, Michael Whapples<mwhapples at aim.com>  wrote:
>> I think the main point missed here is that NVDA can do cell navigation, OK
>> may be not quite as nice (in some peoples' minds) but still perfectly
>> accessible. I am sure if it became such an issue someone would feel pushed
>> enough to add it to opensource products like NVDA and then that might push
>> the commercial offerings to catch up as they would be lacking.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram at nc.rr.com>
>> To:<john.gardner at orst.edu>; "'Blind Math list for those interested in
>> mathematics'"<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>>
>>> That's cell navigation, no? in other words, that read 2, 5, 8 if you were
>>> navigating down a keypad, instead of reading, 1,2,3:
>>> 4,5,6: 7,8,9.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of John Gardner
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:39 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> Hmmm, it is news to me.  I use CTRL-ALT arrows to navigate html tables
>>> with
>>> NVDA all the time.  I know the NVDA folks are developing richer table
>>> navigation, but this row/column navigation method works perfectly well.  I
>>> actually prefer NVDA for this purpose and lots of other web tasks,
>>> particularly filling out forms.  It is really stable compared to the other
>>> screen readers.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:51 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> I just confirmed this. NVDA does not currently have row/column reading,
>>> but
>>> I'll be requesting this, today.
>>>
>>> I'm discussing the matter with some folks on twitter. *glances at previous
>>> statement, and shakes head* never thought I'd say that,
>>> before.
>>>
>>> Ken, thanks again for the heads up.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:40 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>>
>>> No what I mean is a way to read the entire row for example 7 8 9 NVDA
>>> doesn't seem to have that feature  as of yet.  In jaws they use Microsoft
>>> key , for rows and Microsoft key . for columns  It is just an easy way to
>>> read the whole set of numbers and.  The cell navigation is a good as well
>>> which it seems all the screen readers handle that.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:30 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>
>>> I am not sure what keys you mean.
>>>
>>> To navigate by cells in NVDA you use ctrl+alt+<cursors>  to move around the
>>> table. Also users of the Mac and voiceover have this sort of navigation.
>>>
>>> If you mean a way of defining which order NVDA reads through a table when
>>> doing continuous reading, then there is no option for that. However I
>>> would
>>> imagine such a feature would be fairly simple to be added for those who
>>> are
>>> familiar with NVDA code.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 15 Nov 2011, at 19:03, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with you in essence but when your designing something for a
>>>> class it would be nice if the students who can not afford jaws can
>>>> still get good access like I said I hope I am missing the keys for
>>>> NVDA but I haven't found them yet.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:35 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>> Wait a minute, NVDA doesn't have row/column reading?
>>>>
>>>> First off, let's not code to the lowest common denominator: we have
>>>> enough of that in this field.
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak to system access, but I will start contacting NVDA guys
>>>> right now about this issue.
>>>>
>>>> Ken, thanks for the heads up. I just assumed they had something so basic.
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:23 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree except for one problem.  With jaws you can use windows , and
>>>> windows . to read the row or column in order but I have yet to find a
>>>> way to do that with either system access or nvda.  My first method
>>>> allows you to read a whole row no matter the screen reader so I guess
>>>> it depends if you need to be able to read a whole row of the numbers.
>>>> Maybe you could add this feature fast enough to NVDA though, if it is
>>>> not there and I just have not found it.
>>>>
>>>> OH all the screen readers seem to read the table version of the matrix
>>>> fine by cells its just the row and column reading that I like with
>>>> Jaws if you have to use tables.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:05 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>> Where as a simple html table would be ideal for both.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:50 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>
>>>> I am assuming that the blind student can scroll up and down through
>>>> the rows using the up and down arrow keys, encountering only three
>>>> values with each press of the arrow key.
>>>>
>>>> Another alternative would be to put all nine values for a 3x3 matrix
>>>> on the same line with some sort of delimiter to indicate that each
>>>> group of 3 values represents a row.
>>>>
>>>> However, there is a problem with this also. Despite the need to
>>>> accommodate blind students in the course, I must also make certain
>>>> that I accommodate the needs of sighted students. Sighted students are
>>>> accustomed to seeing matrices written in rows and columns and all of
>>>> the textbooks present matrices in that format. I must use a format
>>>> that works for both the blind students and the sighted students, which
>>>> is one of the reasons that I like this approach. It should work for
>>>> blind students and it looks nominally correct for sighted students. Not
>>> ideal for either but adequate for both.
>>>>
>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The good part is if you have it in this kind of form and the student
>>>>> has another form he or she likes better its not hard to reparse this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>
>>>>> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the
>>>>> matrix, I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a
>>>>> matrix follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate
>>>>> the columns and the rows without having to space through the
>>>>> characters individually.
>>>>>
>>>>> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf<icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the
>>>>>> punctuation
>>>>>> level:
>>>>>> 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get
>>>>>> you into NVDA's settings.
>>>>>> 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>>>>>> 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and
>>>>>> then press enter.
>>>>>> 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
>>>>>> punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
>>>>>> 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none,
>>>>>> some, most, and all.
>>>>>> 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>>>>>> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into
>>>>>> the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know
>>>>>> it
>>>>> yet.
>>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>>> Greg W.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day
>>>>>> of all days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do I make that setting?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ken
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>>>>>>>> nfbnet.org<blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard
>>>>>>>> Baldwin
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>>>>>>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows.
>>>>>>>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left
>>>>>>>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down
>>>>>>>> arrow is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no
>>>>>>>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way
>>>>>>>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page
>>>>>>>>> with a 3 by
>>>>>>>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>   elements don't get
>>>> converted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <html>
>>>>>>>>> <body>
>>>>>>>>> <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>>>>>>>>> <pre>
>>>>>>>>> 3 | 9 | 8
>>>>>>>>> 4 | 6 | 5
>>>>>>>>> 6 | 4 | 8
>>>>>>>>>      </pre>
>>>>>>>>> </body>
>>>>>>>>> </html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks Ken,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I
>>>>>>>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>   and put them in XHTML
>>>>>>>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and
>>>>>>>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the
>>>>>>>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to
>>>>>>>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed matrices.
>>>>>>>>> If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those characters.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>>>>>>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The
>>>>>>>>>> calculator still exists but the newest version is not that
>>>>>>>>>> accessible. I would just type the matrix out in a text editor
>>>>>>>>>> and space the
>>>>> columns.
>>>>>>>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row
>>>>>>>>>> and put it under the other and move things around.  I know that
>>>>>>>>>> is not pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted
>>>>>>>>>> folks
>>>> did it.
>>>>>>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in
>>>>>>>>>> my head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I
>>>>>>>>>> was trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get
>>>>>>>>>> back to that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on
>>>>>>>>>> the simple text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to
>>>>>>>>>> easily see all the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used
>>>>>>>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking
>>>>>>>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML
>>>>>>>>>> can be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page.
>>>>>>>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes
>>>>>>>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a
>>>>>>>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web
>>>>>>>>>> page.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>>>>>>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>>>>>>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>>>>>>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a
>>>>>>>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav
>>>>>>>>>> Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>>>>>>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and
>>>>>>>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the
>>>>>>>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
>>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Spring
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>>>>>>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in
>>>>>>>>>>>> game and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of
>>>>>>>>>>>> matrix and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian
>>>>>>>>>>>> principles in games and simulations. Also
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> covers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> code optimization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even
>>>>>>>>>>>> if there
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these
>>>>>>>>>>>> topics (which I
>>>>>>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard
>>>>>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> reader), I
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line
>>>>>>>>>>>> Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/bal
>>>>>>>>>>>> dw in/>  ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>>>>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http:
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>>>>>>>>>>> baldwin%40d<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> g/baldwin%40d>
>>>>>>>>>>> ic
>>>>>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> kperry%40blin<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
>>>>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>>>>> rg/kperry%40blin>
>>>>>>>>>> ks
>>>>>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> .o
>>>>>>>>>> rg/baldwin%40dic>
>>>>>>>>>> kb
>>>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>>>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> org/kperry%40blinks>
>>>>>>>>> oft.co
>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> org/baldwin%40dickb>
>>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>>>>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>>>>>>>> College
>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>> kperry%40blinksoft.co<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_
>>>>>>>> nf
>>>>>>>> bnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co>
>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>>>> at h_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
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>>>>>> ne t.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
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>>>>>> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmat
>>>>>> h_ nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
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>>>
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>>
>>
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