[Blindmath] SVG Draw

Fri Oct 7 16:11:08 UTC 2011

May be I got the wrong end of the stick on how IVEO speaks titles and descriptions. As I initially put, is that bit something that IVEO needs to add to the SVG standard to enable the information to be stored? If it is that SVG isn't enough then most of what I said won't apply.

As for licensing, its normally there for some type of protection, most likely to give a product an advantage over others. However sometimes by being restrictive it can just get in the way (a different example was the early Sony netMD recorders, restricting you to only copying something out on to three mini-discs at a time and not letting the PC-MD connection to be used to copy recordings from the mini-disc back into the computer, even if you recorded it yourself on the device and so owned the copyright. Lets put it this way, I found that netMD so annoying that when it came to replace the device I looked at other things (there were other considerations which made me make that decision, Sony's lack of interest in accessibility in their software, etc but the annoyances with Sony's over protective copy protection system did count)). Coming back to the point, I just wonder how practical will it be to make something only available to blind users? Also certainly with the IVEO 2 software for a sighted user we found it awkward to generate satisfactory diagrams at times and may be there would be better tools for a sighted user, Why should they be restricted to IVEO licensed tools? As I said, it can feel like IVEO is the limitation.

Yes also I hate the idea of hardware lock in, particularly if the only reason is to protect sales. However hardware lock in can feel nicer if its done correct as the "whole system" just works that much better than trying to get it working on things it probably was never designed for. I guess apple could say things on that, "why can I rely on being able to walk up to any Apple Mac and get speech by pressing command+f5?" because Apple has control through the whole system. In comparison on Linux I noticed a gnome-shell extension for removing the accessibility icon from the shell, while people are free to do that sort of thing Linux will never have such a good experience as Mac (I will have to ensure that any Linux distribution I use does not remove accessibility components).

Michael whapples
On 7 Oct 2011, at 16:33, John Gardner wrote:

> Michael, shame on you.  I thought you understood IVEO, but you could also
> read more carefully.  The issue is licensing.  IVEO Viewer provides audio
> access for ViewPlus-licensed files - ie those made with Creator, Creator
> Pro, or other aps with ViewPlus licenses.n  I am offering to make SVG Draw
> such a ViewPlus-licensed application to be given free to blind users.
> What's the problem?
> 
> Presently IVEO applications all utilize standard SVG 1.0.  The new IVEO 3
> version will incorporate new features that are already on the docket for
> inclusion in SVG 2.0.  For the time being of course, IVEO 3 can indeed
> include features beyond SVG 1.0.  
> 
> Finally I believe that the IVEO ip protection scheme is much more
> user-friendly than locking to hardware.  Locking to hardware is more like
> extortion than ip protection.  In fact IVEO supports any external pointing
> devices that emulate the mouse.  Admittedly the most convenient device is
> the IVEO touchpad, which now uses its own interface that avoids some of the
> inconveniences of mouse emulation.  You can also print to regular printers
> to make swell paper tactiles instead of using a ViewPlus embosser.  
> 
> John
> 
> 
> John
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 6:40 AM
> To: john.gardner at orst.edu; Blind Math list for those interested in
> mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] SVG Draw
> 
> Hello John,
> Your first comment/question is something which gets me a bit. So only IVEO
> creator or creator pro can produce files with speakable titles and
> descriptions? I take it then that this is not using a standard part of SVG?
> I know why that decision may have been made, however I possibly view it as a
> limitation of the IVEO system rather than an enhancement (if SVG elements
> can normally have a text title and description). A limitation as IVEO
> doesn't work with standard SVG.
> As I said I guess I know the reasons, you need something to make people buy
> IVEO stuff. Might people be prepared to pay an affordable amount for a IVEO
> viewer which works with standard SVG drawings? Should the IVEO creator tools
> offer a more compelling reason to buy them (EG. live up to their name and be
> the compelling tool for creating a drawing)? There is the other way to get
> people to buy and that is through hardware lock in (IE. the software is so
> tightly integrated with the hardware they have to buy your hardware for the
> tool to be useful).
> 
> Michael whapples
> On 6 Oct 2011, at 22:57, John Gardner wrote:
> 
>> Hello all, I have several questions and comments on SVG Draw.  One
> question
>> for list members is whether it would be useful to have full IVEO access to
>> SVG files made with SVG Draw.  Presently, because of licensing
> requirements,
>> you must have IVEO Creator or IVEO Creator Pro to get audio access to the
>> SVG title and description and the object titles and descriptions entered
>> when creating an SVG drawing with SVG Draw.  If many of you would like to
>> have it, I will request that the IVEO authoring license be added to SVG
> Draw
>> in a special version available only to blind users.  This will make these
>> files IVEO-accessible in the free IVEO Viewer.  Don't know how the
>> distribution would work, but tell me whether it would be useful enough to
>> you for us to spend the effort to work out details.
>> 
>> Now a comment on color.  There is an undocumented feature in all ViewPlus
>> printer drivers that permit one to substitute a tactile pattern of your
>> design for a color.  I intend to write an article for Access2Science
>> documenting use of this feature - which you can then use with SVG drawings
>> created with SVG Draw.  
>> 
>> Finally I have a number of suggestions for Dick Baldwin on improvements to
>> SVG Draw, primarily usability.  Let me be very clear that I think this is
> a
>> terrific application, already better than anything ever made for creating
>> graphics by blind people.  But you asked for suggestions!
>> * It is too wordy in my opinion.  You have a wonderful help file, and it
>> really isn't necessary to be told every time that the coordinates are
> inches
>> multiplied by 100.  And there are 'ok' boxes that aren't really needed.
>> When one clicks to get some action that can't be damaging, one doesn't
> need
>> to confirm that this is what one really wants.  It's good to have this for
>> things like "do you really want to exit without saving this file?" etc.
>> Interesting, one place that such a question is normally asked is when one
> is
>> saving over an existing file, and SVG Draw doesn't seem to do that.  But
>> maybe I just missed it.
>> *It would be really good if you could use the standard Windows (or Java
> SWT)
>> file open and save dialogues.  Anybody sophisticated enough to use SVG
> Draw
>> uses these routinely, and it is disconcerting not to have them.
>> *Several read-only dialog boxes are less accessible then they could be.  I
>> just reviewed the objects in a drawing.  First of all there seems to be an
>> id that I didn't put on, and it doesn't help me to identify the object, so
> I
>> suggest that it be suppressed, so that only the object type (ie line,
>> polyline) is shown along with coordinates.  Secondly this dialog is fairly
>> long, and it cannot be reviewed easily.  One can use the mouse, or review
>> mode in NVDA, but this is tedious.  It is possible to permit cursor
> movement
>> in read-only dialog boxes, at least in standard windows dialogs, because
>> there are many such.  Can you do this for these logn dialogs?  If so,
> screen
>> readers will then be able to review the information letter by letter or
> word
>> by word, a great help for me anyhow.
>> 
>> Thanks all.  This is fun!
>> 
>> John Gardner
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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