[Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper giids

I. C. Bray i.c.bray at win.net
Mon Dec 2 20:04:26 UTC 2013


No, I''m making myh posts public on purpose.


Thank you.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sabra1023" <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper giids


: You're just talking to one person, would you mind making sure just to 
reply to them rather than the whole list? Thank you.
:
: > On Dec 1, 2013, at 12:40 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
: >
: > And just when you thought all the sighted people lived richer lives than 
the
: > blind...
: > Facinating... utterly Facinating!!!!
: > We should have a total blind-educators retreat... I mean really... bring 
all
: > math geeks, and geometry nerds, and blind pursuers of The Newtonian 
Archaics
: > together for a week of pocket-protector melting math fun!!!
: >
: > Wow.. Thanks for the honesty, and candor, guys...
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > ----- Original Message ----- 
: > From: "Lewicki, Maureen" <mlewicki at bcsd.neric.org>
: > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:30 AM
: > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper 
giids
: >
: >
: > : By the way,Andy,I have been sighted all  my life and I can't draw in
: > perspective!
: > :
: > : In art class we were taught to draw what we  see. They would put out 
an
: > apple,an orange, and a bottle for us to copy. Good joke. My pictures 
looked
: > like circles laying on each other. As a kid when I had to illustrate my
: > compositions, I always would  draw what I could draw, a tree trunk. No
: > matter what the story was about! I never understood shading, either.
: > :
: > : Would you all forgive me if this sounds patronizing??!! The sighted,
: > including myself, will never fully understand the richness of the 
textures
: > that the blind experience, the sound of shadows, the boldness of smells,
: > good and bad, and the layers of sound(the way i think my students may 
have
: > learned to hear..I hear noises in the hallways, for example,but my 
students
: > want the door closed. I THINK it is because that is not just noise and
: > indiscriminate voices as it is for me. I THINK it is because they are
: > hearing the noises in layers, if you will...dimensions??perspective??
: > :
: > : Goodness forgive me! I forgot this is a math site, so I may have gone 
too
: > far off topic.
: > :
: > : Bottom line, when we have to understand pictures of solids, I show my
: > students the picture,and then hand them a solid. The AHHA I hear when I
: > place the solid in their hand is confirmation to me that the picture is
: > lame, but the solid is worth a 1000 words!
: > :
: > : Maureen Lewicki
: > : Teacher of the Visually Impaired
: > : Bethlehem Central Schools
: > : 700 Delaware Avenue
: > : Delmar, NY 12054
: > : http://bcsd.k12.ny.us/
: > :
: > :
: > : On Nov 22, 2013, at 10:39 PM, "Andy B."
: > <sonfire11 at gmail.com<mailto:sonfire11 at gmail.com>> wrote:
: > :
: > : My wife knows the basics, but that is all. I could see before, so have 
an
: > : advantage. I used to be an artist (drawings) when I could see. The way 
to
: > : get a 3d object to appear to be contained on a 2d object such as a 
page of
: > : paper includes perspectives, but it also includes shadowing.
: > : Shadowing/shading a 1d or 2d circle in specific locations to give it 
the
: > : appearance of a 3d ball. It is a matter of interpreting the light 
source
: > and
: > : what direction it is coming from.
: > :
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
Amanda
: > : Lacy
: > : Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 7:42 PM
: > : To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
: > : Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper
: > giids
: > :
: > : I didn't even know the word "perspective" until I was in college. 
Early in
: > : high school I remember being told that the reason I couldn't 
understand
: > : those 3D pictures was because I wasn't trying hard enough. So I tried 
to
: > : imagine how I could take a 3D object and make it into what was on the
: > paper
: > : - by flattening it, of course. If I flattened a sphere, fore example, 
I
: > : would get a circle, which is pretty much what they would show when 
they
: > : meant sphere, but if I flattened a box I would never, ever get that
: > strange
: > : thing that was on the page. Maybe I was supposed to unfold it like a
: > : cardboard box? I really tried to solve this puzzle but couldn't. A 
sighted
: > : tutor at the Texas School for the Blind recently told me that he could
: > teach
: > : people who were blind from birth to interpret these representations, 
but I
: > : have never once heard of someone like myself being able to comprehend
: > them.
: > : I've heard of at least one person memorizing the basic shapes, but no 
real
: > : understanding had taken place. Has anyone who has never seen been able 
to
: > : touch a raised 3D picture and truly know what it's supposed to 
represent?
: > : ----- Original Message -----
: > : From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu<mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>>
: > : To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > : <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
: > : Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:31 PM
: > : Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper
: > giids
: > :
: > :
: > : People don't realize that drawing in perspective is an invention.
: > : Before some time around 1300, when creating  paintings, artists didn't
: > : regularly even do things like make objects smaller to make them look
: > : like they were further away. These days, sighted people take this
: > : concept of perspective for granted but for most of human history, it
: > : didn't even exist.
: > :
: > : I work on the 5th floor in  the math building on the campus of the
: > : University of Wisconsin. On the wall by the elevator, there is a
: > : raised number 5. Under that is the number 5 in braille. That raised
: > : number would mean nothing to someone who has never seen the number 5
: > : in print. I am presuming it's there for people who lost their sight.
: > : But the braille 5 and the printed 5 are equally valid representations 
of
: > : the concept of 5.
: > : Certainly the printed symbol 5 would be recognized by more people even
: > : so, they are equally valid representations of the concept of the 
number 5.
: > :
: > : A graph is just like that. A graph is not the actual data, it's a
: > : symbolic representation of the data. Any decent instructor would know
: > : that.  Yet, all too often on this list, we hear of instructors saying
: > : that math is too visual by nature for a blind student to grasp.  It's
: > : ridiculous.
: > :
: > : There is absolutely nothing in mathematics that is innately visual.
: > : In fact, the less you rely on the symbolic representations of the
: > : concepts, the better off you are. It's impossible to communicate
: > : mathematical concepts without symbols -- words, print, or braill --
: > : these are all symbols. But when you are working on the concepts in
: > : your own mind, the symbols can only get in the way. If adequate tools
: > : existed for 3D graphics,  a blind student might very well be better at
: > : it than a sighted student who might be locked into this inadequate
: > : perspective drawing concept.
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : On 11/22/13 11:46, sabra1023 wrote:
: > : I think if you're going to graphic having the Z axis in the air would
: > : be the best option. I've been blind from birth, and while I
: > : understand that sighted people delude themselves into thinking a one
: > : dimensional picture is a three-dimensional object, I do not
: > : understand most of the time how they come to their conclusions about
: > : this. They continually treat their pictures as if they're actually
: > : objects, which annoys me to no end.
: > : Through school, I was just given tactile pictures and taught the way
: > : cited people learn. As a result, I thought there was something wrong
: > : with my brain and that I could never succeed in math because I
: > : couldn't understand their pictures, methods for representing things, 
and
: > : examples.
: > : I have come to learn that my brain processes information differently
: > : then cited people, but I am still debating with myself as to whether
: > : this means it isn't working or not. The point is that now, I can do
: > : well in math without their difficult and unnatural ways of doing th
: > : in
: > : gs holding me back. When sighted people look at three-dimensional
: > : representations, there really looking at optical illusions. My brain
: > : doesn't process these illusions. I think it means I'll be better
: > : equipped to do math beyond the third dimension, but it also means I
: > : can't tolerate an accurate representation of the third dimension and
: > : beyond. The z-axis may appear to be floating above the quadrant, but
: > : it actually isn't because The quadrant is now three-dimensional.
: > : That's why I think it's even bad for sighted people to represent three
: > : dimensions as pictures.
: > :
: > : On Nov 22, 2013, at 4:58 AM, "Mary Woodyard"
: > : <marywoodyard at comcast.net<mailto:marywoodyard at comcast.net>>
: > : wrote:
: > :
: > : My son will be starting a 3d graphing unit that is fairly short (2
: > : weeks) in
: > : about a week.  He spent some time searching online with his Math
: > : tutor for 3d Graphing paper and this is the graph paper that they
: > : found that worked the best for his vision from what they were able
: > : to find in free 3d graph paper options.  Does anyone know of a more
: > : accessible free (or low cost) option?
: > :
: > : Thanks,
: > :
: > : Mary Woodyard
: > : Parent, 17 year old visually impaired student
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
: > : blindmath-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-request at nfbnet.org>
: > : Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:00 AM
: > : To: blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > : Subject: Blindmath Digest, Vol 88, Issue 12
: > :
: > : Send Blindmath mailing list submissions to
: > :   blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > :
: > : To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
: > :   http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
: > :   blindmath-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-request at nfbnet.org>
: > :
: > : You can reach the person managing the list at
: > :   blindmath-owner at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-owner at nfbnet.org>
: > :
: > : When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific 
than
: > : "Re: Contents of Blindmath digest..."
: > :
: > :
: > : Today's Topics:
: > :
: > :  1. Re: Latex training (John Gardner)
: > :  2. A project to advance MathML support in browsers (Andrew Stacey)
: > :
: > :
: > : ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: > :
: > : Message: 1
: > : Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:21:50 -0800
: > : From: "John Gardner"
: > <gardnerj at onid.orst.edu<mailto:gardnerj at onid.orst.edu>>
: > : To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
: > :   <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
: > : Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Latex training
: > : Message-ID:
: > 
<00cd01cee671$334eac90$99ec05b0$@orst.edu<mailto:00cd01cee671$334eac90$99ec05b0$@orst.edu>>
: > : Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
: > :
: > : Another suggestion.  There's lots of Latex materials on
: > : www.access2science.com<http://www.access2science.com>
: > :
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
: > : Godfrey,
: > : Jonathan
: > : Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:42 PM
: > : To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
: > : Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Latex training
: > :
: > : Hi Paul,
: > :
: > : I haven't got access to the net with sufficient time to find the exact
: > : link
: > : for you but look for the Summery University held in conjunction with 
the
: > : ICCHP. Sessions were recorded from 2010 onwards. I'm not sure if the
: > : 2013
: > : ones are uploaded yet but the files mentioned should all be there for
: > : reference purposes.
: > : J
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
Paul
: > : Chapin
: > : Sent: Thursday, 21 November 2013 8:51 a.m.
: > : To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
: > : Subject: [Blindmath] Latex training
: > :
: > : Hi,
: > :
: > : I'm looking for suggestions for material, courses, tutorials or 
anything
: > : else that can be used to teach a student the basics of Latex.
: > :
: > : Paul Chapin
: > : Academic Technology Specialist
: > : Amherst College
: > : X2144
: > :
: > : Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including 
by
: > : email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost 
certainly
: > : bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a 
login
: > :
: > : as
: > : the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
: > : passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.
: > :
: > : _______________________________________________
: > : Blindmath mailing list
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: > : Blindmath:
: > :
: > :
: > 
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.
: > : ac.nz<http://ac.nz>
: > :
: > : _______________________________________________
: > : Blindmath mailing list
: > : Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
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: > : Blindmath:
: > :
: > :
: > 
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40orst.e
: > : du
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : ------------------------------
: > :
: > : Message: 2
: > : Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:00:00 +0100
: > : From: Andrew Stacey
: > <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no<mailto:andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>>
: > : To: Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
: > : Subject: [Blindmath] A project to advance MathML support in browsers
: > : Message-ID:
: > 
<20131121080000.GA590 at dhcp-020041.wlan.ntnu.no<mailto:20131121080000.GA590 at dhcp-020041.wlan.ntnu.no>>
: > : Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
: > :
: > : Dear all,
: > :
: > : I'd like to bring to everyone's attention a project to advance browser
: > : and
: > : e-reader support for MathML.  The project description itself is very
: > : detailed, and explicitly mentions the issue of accessibility in the
: > : motivation section.
: > :
: > : The person behind this project is Fr?d?ric Wang.  He is one of the
: > : people
: > : who has worked hard on MathML support in browser technology over the
: > : last
: > : few years, so is best placed to know what the issues are and what the
: > : next
: > : stage in development should be.  So if anyone is going to improved
: > : matters,
: > : he's the best choice.
: > :
: > : He's looking for funding so that he can spend some time concentrating 
on
: > : MathML development and the website is on a crowd-funding site where
: > : people
: > : can contribute.  The actual amount that he is trying to raise is not
: > : actually all that much, particularly given the wide-ranging benefits
: > : that
: > : could follow from this.
: > :
: > : I hope that all of you will consider supporting this project, and that
: > : some
: > : of you will actually do so.
: > :
: > : The website is: http://www.ulule.com/mathematics-ebooks/
: > :
: > : Andrew Stacey
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : ------------------------------
: > :
: > : Subject: Digest Footer
: > :
: > : _______________________________________________
: > : Blindmath mailing list
: > : Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > :
: > :
: > : ------------------------------
: > :
: > : End of Blindmath Digest, Vol 88, Issue 12
: > : *****************************************
: > : <3D Gra3.gif>
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: > : Blindmath:
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: > :
: > 
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: > :
: > : _______________________________________________
: > : Blindmath mailing list
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: > :
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: > :
: > :
: > : --
: > : ---
: > : John G. Heim, 608-263-4189,
: > jheim at math.wisc.edu<mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>
: > :
: > : _______________________________________________
: > : Blindmath mailing list
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: > :
: > :
: > :
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: > :
: > :
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Blindmath:
: > 
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: > BlindMath Gems can be found at 
<http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
:
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