[Blindmath] books in accessible format

[P. McDermott-Wells]

It is important not to overlook one aspect of this: the intellectual
property aspect.  Since a great deal of work goes into the authorship as
well as the layout and production of a textbook, a publisher wants to
protect that investment.  By releasing the textbook in a simple digital
format, the textbook contents can now be very easily manipulated and
slightly modified by someone else who then publishes and sells, without
incurring the large time and money investment to produce the original work.
Copyright won't protect against this once the material is slightly altered.
So from the publisher's standpoint, why make it easy for someone to create
cheap "knock-offs" when they paid big money to an author, several editors,
several reviewers, and developers of instructor and student resource
materials. 

Suppose a publisher were to work through a single organization such as NFB
and only release digital versions to them, and NFB then translated to
Braille and only released Braille. Reverse translation of Braille would
produce the digital version fairly easily.  So this is not about publisher
laziness or lack of understanding or discrimination, it is about protecting
their investment in intellectual property.

In reality, as publishers move toward some form of digital versions (still
mostly PDF), some of these issues will have to be addressed.  The textbook
publishing industry is undergoing huge business model changes (as did the
music production industry in the last few years), and it is still too early
to predict exactly how it will all shake out.

-----Original Message-----
From: sabra1023 [mailto:sabra1023 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:46 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Cc: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format

It really isn't hard for publishing companies to make their work accessible.
It wouldn't just benefit blind people. These accessibility features would
benefit about 10% of the population. People uses screen readers and
electronic textbooks for other reasons rather than just being blind. Some
people have dyslexia. Some people have cerebral palsy, even know they might
be able to see, their eyes might not be able to focus well enough on the
text, so they may need a screen reader as well. Some people might be able to
physically see the printed text, but they need additional access because
they are using a specialized keyboard or dictation software, which means
that they Soli need to navigate through the book with keyboard only methods.
It's true that after publisher has already made a document, the editing to
make it accessible can be quite extensive, but if publishers think about
accessibility at the beginning, extensive editing won't be necessary.
Further, the Nfb is forwarding legislation called teach so that schools
won't be able to purchase an accessible materials. Therefore, it really
would be in the publisher's best interest to just conform. I believe the
bill will pass because lots of other organizations are already supporting
the Nfb. The publishers could still make a profit for their accessible books
and accompanying software if applicable. In fact, the publishers are
ensuring that they make less of a profit when they don't make their products
accessible. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any blindness
organization that exists right now that has the resources, personnel, and
copyright permissions to start their own accessible publishing company. The
most effective use of resources would be to get those people who want to
join a publishing company and have them volunteer for book share adding new
books and editing old books to increase accessibility. However, I hope that
in the future, all of this extra work won't even be necessary because the
publishers will have thought about all this ahead of time and spirit lots of
people hundreds of hours of heartache.

On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:19 PM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:

> John,
> What I am getting at is not easilly said concisely 
> BasicalllyBasically, it should be a for profit Message ----- 
> organization who's mission is to provide a facility that employs 
> blind, vision impaired, and sighted individuals to do standardization 
> of accessibil materials for any and all other companies such as Text 
> Book Publishers, Electronics Manufacturers, and any other "group" that 
> wishes to produce accessible options for it's customers.
> Rather than have every company attempt to make their products 
> accessible, have the NFBPublishing company a "partner"  to get it done.
> 
> The only criticism I have about APH is that they typically don't do 
> extreemely up to date texts.  I find the majority of the products to 
> be rather expensive... and being on fixed income makes that prohibitive.
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of reinventing the weel, we make whatever wheel is needed and 
> ship it to the customer.
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
> 
> 
> : I'm unclear on one thing though. Don't you think Learnng Ally would 
> love
> : to be the company  you describe below only it's just not that easy?
> : Learning Ally is a non-profit so maybe you're thinking a for-profit
> : company would be more effective? I'm not disputing that. I don't know.
> : I'm just not clear on what you are getting at.
> :
> : I wish I knew more about this stuff.  All I know is from what I read 
> on
> : this list. There seems to be a lot of people working in different
> : directions. That seems to be the case in everything from non-profits 
> to
> : software.  I am not aware of any actual duplicate projects but there
> : does seem to be a lot of overlap in all aspects of this problem. And 
> it
> : seems extremely difficult to get an understanding as to how all the
> : pieces fit together.
> :
> :
> : On 09/16/13 10:18, I. C. Bray wrote:
> : > NO, I'm not talking about for end-consumers.
> : > I'm talking about products & vendors who are required to release 
> items,
> : > publications, and electronics etc.
> : > Instead of each individual company like Sony, Motorola, and 
> perhaps Software
> : > Developers...
> : > The NFB-Publishing would be given printed materials or PDFs or 
> would be
> : > responsible for reviewing a company's websites, and whatever else 
> for
> : > functionality.
> : >
> : > Example:
> : > Let's say MathWorks produces a new Calculus book.
> : > Instead of them publishing the hardback text only, they release 
> preliminary,
> : > intermediate, and final drafts along with errata to my 
> hypothetical
> : > publishing company.
> : > Since by law, everything published for sighted people should be 
> available
> : > reasonably for blind people, NFBPublishing would either OCR-Tag 
> PDF copies,
> : > have them recorded in audio and get them published into braille or 
> just BRF
> : > formats.
> : >
> : > Then, Since the Publishing Company is producing the material, and 
> we have
> : > the means, technology, and the appropriate understanding of what 
> is best
> : > needed, we do it all.
> : > When a blind customer requires a full text in braille, then the 
> customer
> : > pays for the textbook as normal, takes the ADA Card and Receipt 
> from the
> : > book and submits it to the publisher or whatever, and then the
> : > Publisher/owner exchanges the Print book for the Accessible 
> Version, or the
> : > customer pays a small fee to keep the print copy and receives the 
> other too.
> : >
> : >
> : > Then NFB Publishing could manage textbook Exchanges, and there 
> would not be
> : > a huge need to print thousands of coppies, but the cost of 
> publishing ANY
> : > book is spread out to any and all purchases of the book thus 
> making it
> : > easier on people like Me, Tami, and others to buy our Physics & 
> Linear
> : > Analysis texts at a REASONABLE cost instead of the $75000 per...
> : >
> : > Please do realize... this is just a brainstorming exercise here... 
> I'm
> : > thinking out loud and just seeing what others think too...
> : >
> : > The idea that I want/need a book in braille and it's nearly 
> impossible to
> : > find, and so costly to produce is silly.
> : >
> : > Often, hours upon hours of time from various Disability Resource 
> Centers is
> : > eaten up by producing an odd copy or two of accessible material 
> for only a
> : > small number of students... if those hours were freed-up and the 
> texts ALL
> : > managed throughout the publishing process, and a small number 
> published
> : > centrally... I'm just thinking it might work!!
> : >
> : > Ian
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > ----- Original Message -----
> : > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:25 AM
> : > Subject: [Blindmath] books in accessible format (was: Typing in
> : > NemethBraille)
> : >
> : >
> : > : Do you know about Learning Ally and Bookshare? The company you 
> describe
> : > : doesn't sound very different from Learning Ally and some of what
> : > : Bookshare does would overlap as well. I let my Learning Ally 
> membership
> : > : expire 20 years ago. It was calledRFBD back then. But they used 
> to send
> : > : me textbooks in a digital format on diskette.  So they might 
> have worked
> : > : out the whole mathematical symbol thing by now. But I wouldn't know.
> : > : Bookshare operates under an exception in United States copyright
law. 
> So
> : > : they don't have everything and not everything they have is 
> available
> : > : internationally. Even so, it would probably be a lot easier to 
> with one
> : > : of these organizations to tweak their existing infrastructure 
> rather
> : > : than start from scratch on your own.
> : > :
> : > :
> : > : On 09/16/13 03:38, I. C. Bray wrote:
> : > : > Michael,
> : > : >
> : > : > Is there any means by which NFB members could join together 
> and form a
> : > : > publishing company whereby we accept materials and products 
> and produce
> : > the
> : > : > accessible materials for the originating manufacturers?
> : > : > As an example,  Say NFB-Media were to either hire or contract
> : > organizations
> : > : > who already produce accessible materials specifically for the 
> blind and
> : > : > would be paid by the Manufacturers for doing it for them?
> : > : > This way, we the blind consumers are directly producing what 
> we need.
> : > Our
> : > : > own standards of accessability are met, Companies are given 
> proven,
> : > : > accessible materials to distribute as needed, and the 
> NFB-Publishing are
> : > : > granted royalty for the distribution of said working / proven 
> materials,
> : > and
> : > : > Manufacturers  are able to concentrate on the functionality 
> while we
> : > make
> : > : > sure to communicate it appropriately.
> : > : >
> : > : > I mean, perhaps I am dreaming here, but is that really too 
> much to
> : > manage?
> : > : >
> : > : > Rather than constantly be inopposition, be an active means to 
> a
> : > solution.
> : > : >
> : > : > Ok... now... discuss.
> : > : >
> : > : > Respectfully,
> : > : > Ian  C. Bray
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : > ----- Original Message -----
> : > : > From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
> : > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> : > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> : > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:45 AM
> : > : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : > :I am not sure I want to encourage just debate about why, 
> after all
> : > : > : action would be better.
> : > : > :
> : > : > : One thing which is slightly shocking, certainly concerning 
> is that the
> : > : > : Coalition of e-reader manufacturers have sought a waiver 
> from the FCC
> : > to
> : > : > : be exempt from the accessibility requirements of the 
> Communications
> : > and
> : > : > : Video Accessibility Act
(http://techpolicy.acm.org/blog/?p=3177). 
> I
> : > : > : think we can all draw conclusions from this...
> : > : > :
> : > : > : I understand various organisations, including the NFB, have 
> provided
> : > : > : comments to the FCC.
> : > : > :
> : > : > : We all need to appreciate that math accessibility for the 
> blind is
> : > : > : normally only a small concern out of many for any individual 
> company
> : > : > : involved in making technical documents accessible and that 
> for a good
> : > : > : solution it will require multiple companies to cooperate. As 
> an
> : > example,
> : > : > : just to read a PDF on your computer, it requires the PDF 
> reader (eg.
> : > : > : Adobe reader) to be made accessible, but that will require 
> suitable
> : > : > : support in the accessibility API of the platform it is run 
> on (most
> : > : > : likely Windows, so some support from Microsoft), and then 
> the screen
> : > : > : reader would need to support the math accessibility, and 
> then this all
> : > : > : will only work if the provider of the PDF document actually 
> bothers to
> : > : > : tag the document suitably. This is not to say math 
> accessibility is
> : > not
> : > : > : important, but rather its not necessarily at the top of 
> their lists of
> : > : > : priorities and we all probably have a responsibility to 
> remind them
> : > that
> : > : > : math accessibility is important and that it might be a 
> deciding factor
> : > : > : in your purchasing of software.
> : > : > :
> : > : > : May be as individuals we might have little affect, but if 
> colleges and
> : > : > : universities are faced with needing to make their courses 
> accessible
> : > to
> : > : > : us as individuals, then their purchasing decisions may be 
> affected and
> : > : > : then that might be something significant to some of these
> : > : > : manufacturers/publishers.
> : > : > :
> : > : > : Michael Whapples
> : > : > : On 16/09/2013 00:06, sabra1023 wrote:
> : > : > : > These books can be made accessible in a digital format for 
> a lot
> : > cheaper
> : > : > then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers even 
> have it the
> : > : > books and an accessible format. However, if you try to get the 
> book
> : > : > digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you 
> cannot fully
> : > : > access. I think that we are having these access issues because 
> a big
> : > portion
> : > : > of the cited population believes that blind people have no 
> right to
> : > expect
> : > : > success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math is 
> just too
> : > visual
> : > : > and that the best blind people can expect is to learn basic 
> algebra, but
> : > my
> : > : > experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself isn't
visual.
> : > Sighted
> : > : > people might feel the most comfortable with a visual 
> representation, but
> : > : > that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also, I've 
> known
> : > plenty
> : > : > of blind people who went way past calculus and use their 
> skills in
> : > : > engineering and computer science. If publishers thought about
> : > accessibility
> : > : > from the beginning, it wouldn't be extremely difficult or 
> costly to make
> : > : > sure that blind people as well as other populations can have 
> access to
> : > math
> : > : > electronic text.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls 
> <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
> : > wrote:
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : >> Does your software also back-translate it from Nemeth 
> back to
> : > standard
> : > : > English so that a teacher can get the completed homework from 
> the
> : > student,
> : > : > open it up inWord or some other standard application, and read 
> it in
> : > symbols
> : > : > they understand as a sighted person?
> : > : > : >>
> : > : > : >>
> : > : > : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
> : > : > : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> : > : > : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
> : > : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : > : > : >>>
> : > : > : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using encapsulated 
> "swell"
> : > : > paper) is a great help in math.  I have prepared tactile 
> diagrams for
> : > : > several VI students that I work with, and they have found the 
> diagrams
> : > to be
> : > : > extremely helpful.  I put a small amount of Braille on the 
> diagrams
> : > (just
> : > : > enough to be able to create a separate legend with more 
> information
> : > about
> : > : > the diagram).
> : > : > : >>>
> : > : > : >