[Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?

Tue Dec 1 02:01:15 UTC 2015

Does anybody ever really know what they want to do when they grow up?
I've met a few who say they knew from when they were little kids, but
those are exceedingly rare. Asking me that same question over and over
and over again did not help me out one bit. All I ever did was go to
school, go home, go to school, go home...I had no knowledge of the
world and had never been exposed to computer programming either. Being
exposed to real things is much more useful than being repeatedly asked
hypothetical questions.

Amanda

On 11/30/15, Sarah Jevnikar via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Great points! Also someone brought up parents as a detriment. As a camp
> counsellor for blind kids this past summer, I can’t agree more. There are
> plenty of parents who hesitate to teach their kids to tie their own shoes
> let alone think of a career…
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jonathon Yaggie [mailto:jyaggi2 at uic.edu]
> Sent: November-30-15 7:59 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Cc: Sarah Jevnikar
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
>
>
>
> I have been opting out of this conversation, because I am knee-deep in
> postdoc applications.  However, after reading Sarah's comments, I would like
> to second her thoughts regarding career/educational planning.
>
>
>
> I am on the boarder of being legally blind; therefore, I am fairly high
> functioning.  With that said, low expectations by educators including my TVI
> were disheartening at the least.  All my aptitude tests were consistent - I
> should be a scientist or researcher.  Yet my TVI refused to see me after age
> 15, I did not show appreciation for her talking down to me.  Her primary
> focus before that had been   "assignments", most of which were essays on how
> I could better integrate with "normal" students.   Academics were next
> considered or discussed.  I had not academic accommodations until college.
> That is not to say I did not have an IEP, simply that the only thing on it
> was that I see a social worker.
>
>
>
> With hindsight, I should have pursued medical research.  However, this was
> not even considered an option.   Also i realize now, we do a disservice to
> many students both sighted and visually impaired, by having low
> expectations.  My son who has the same condition, complains endlessly about
> my high expectations.  :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jon Yaggie
>
> UIC Mathematics
>
> Expanding Your Horizons Chicago Coordinator
>
> Keep up with EYH Chicago on Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/ExpandingYourHorizonsChicago>  and Twitter
> <http://www.twitter.com/@EYH_chicago>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Sarah Jevnikar via Blindmath
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> This is an interesting discussion topic.
>
> My TVI in high school did the following for me:
> - find titles of texts prior to my taking the relevant courses and ordering
> them
> - create Braille handouts and tests with diagrams as needed (usually with
> fabric paint)
> - transcribe my tests orally as I Brailled them in Nemeth and she couldn't
> read it
>
> I went into first year without knowing how much I needed to do myself: pick
> courses early enough to order textbooks early enough so they could be
> transcribed; order them once instructors gave me their info (which could be
> slow in coming); translate my homework from Nemeth to text (I use Nemetex as
> needed but probably should learn LaTeX but struggle with the confusing
> literature). Fortunately I had contacts who could help with Brailling tests
> and diagrams for those tests, but otherwise I would have been out of luck. I
> still don't get tactile diagrams unless I ask a classmate, teaching
> assistant or instructor to help make them. Thankfully I was used to
> transcribing tests orally when software failed or wasn't available.
>
> The trick is too that in high school, no student has to find their own texts
> or reading materials. So all students face that hurdle. But blind students
> have greater difficulty in the sense that the readings they need must be
> scanned and hopefully are readable at that point. It's a lengthy process and
> I still don't have a good solution.
>
> I might point out too that my choice of university program was dictated by
> the accommodations I thought I could get. I might have studied biology but
> feared the lab setting as a totlally blind student.
>
> In short, I would encourage every TVI to try to get their students to think
> about what they want to do as a career, then help them plan for it. Biology?
> Sure! Just talk to someone at a local university to get ideas for
> accommodations well in advance. Have students do as much as they can without
> TVI assistance - in the university and real world settings they'll have
> advocates perhaps, but not anyone to help with the day-to-day aspects of
> their education, unless they're able to get funding to pay them.
>
> I hope this made some sense,
> Sarah
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda
> Lacy via Blindmath
> Sent: November-30-15 6:38 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>
> Cc: Amanda Lacy
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
>
> I want a job so that everything will stop changing every semester. I intend
> to work as a programmer, doing I have no idea what. Apparently I was
> supposed to explore that in school, but I've learned not to explore in
> school.
>
> Several people tell me to avoid environments like agile programming since
> for the most part I can't work in groups. I'm now aware of some things to
> avoid, but not the things I should look for.
>
> Amanda
>
> On 11/30/15, Vincent Martin via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I, along with other friends,  actually have had much better
>> accessibility in the private sector!  I am fifty-one years old and my
>> Ph.D is my fifth different STEM degree.  I have had many, many, jobs
>> in the private sector, state and local government, the Federal
>> government, and as a private consultant.  The private sector normally
>> understands accessibility better and lawsuits are much more damaging
>> to a private corporation.  I can say this from the fact that I also
>> have served as an expert witness in fourteen cases so far.  The worst
>> offenders have been schools and the Federal "Government.  I also serve
>> as an accessibility consultant for companies and accessibility is a
>> really hot topic right now.  I make $2100 a month as a graduate
>> research assistant and made three times that amount last year
>> assisting "private" companies on making systems and jobs as accessible
>> as possible.  I literally worked two total weeks during the breaks
>> from my semesters on these projects.  One client who can't be named is
>> very good at accommodating its employees as they age as a middle-level
>> manger that leaves to early retirement takes about a million dollars
>> out the door in institutional knowledge.  Their biggest problem (they
>> are a Fortune 200
>> company) is getting people to self-disclose their disability.  When I
>> showed them back in 2004 how much money they were losing to lost
>> productivity to hidden disabilities, they were floored.  They have
>> spent over ten years attempting to keep their employees and to hire
>> qualified employees with disabilities.  In 2005, I convinced them not
>> to start a customer service program for blind employees.  Instead,
>> they try to hire very qualified employs, disability or not, and then
>> provide them with the best support possible.
>>
>> That blind engineer that got her M.B.A. at Drexel lost her vision
>> while she was working for a private employer.  The State Voc Rehab
>> people were unable to solve her accessibility problem, but we blind
>> people did.  I, along with a Freedom Scientific tech support
>> specialist, solved the interface problem with her mainframe over the
>> phone.  She was re-hired and my research lab at the Veterans
>> Administration "stole" her from her.  She had a pain in the butt
>> getting all of her equipment, such as an oscilloscope that attached to
>> a computer.  The Feds said that it was not assistive technology,
>> because anyone could use it.  Our supervisor bought it  out of his
>> discretionary funds.  At both of her private sector jobs, the
>> assistive technology showed up even when she did not ask for it.  When
>> she left for the Feds, she hated to give up her Braille Note PK.  It,
> along with all types of devices would just be delivered out of the blue.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Jeremy via Blindmath
>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 3:43 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Cc: Jeremy
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
>>
>> While all this is great, what are these blind PhD students going to do
>> when they join the workforce and all these teams of individuals are no
>> longer available to insure accessibility of work related materials.
>> Believe me, you're not going to sick the government on your private sector
> employer.
>>
>> Now having left university life long ago, it is amazing to me how
>> different the real world really functions as opposed to the
>> pseudo-utopia in these educational institutions.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> vincent martin via Blindmath
>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 12:03 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Cc: vincent martin
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
>>
>> Amanda,
>> I will get back to the TVI topic, but wanted to lend you an arm of
> support!
>> The way you expressed yourself is the way in which so many blind
>> students feel each and every quarter/semester.  Don't let your bad
>> experiences stop you from going further if you so desire.  I am sure
>> we can find a graduate program at a school that would gladly have and
>> accommodate you!  If a school starts to accommodate students and gets
>> ones that are successful, then they start expecting them to show up.
>> That has started to occur at North Carolina State where they have had
>> two blind Ph.D. students in Computer Science recently.  Maybe we can
>> start a list/database of schools that have done a good job of making
>> STEM related curriculum accessible.  That would be a great benefit to
>> students considering which schools to attend in the future.
>>
>> I am the first totally blind student in the history of Georgia Tech.
>> Although things were terrible when I got here as far as accessibility
>> is concerned, I have done whatever I can to open the doors to the ones
>> that follow me.  That included filing complaints with the Department
>> of Education.  Things got much better once the Feds showed up!  We
>> even have a new disability access policy that has been publically
>> circulated for open comment before it becomes standard institute
>> policy.  Last year I encountered a visually impaired student at the
>> Empowering Blind students in STEM workshop sponsored by DO-IT at the
>> University of Washington.  He was interested in the Ph.D. program in
>> Biomedical Engineering here.  He was accepted and enrolled this Fall and
> all of his documents are accessible!
>>
>> We now have a professional on campus who is responsible for making
>> sure our documents are converted into the format we need in a timely
>> manner.  PDF documents can be converted with OCR software to a
>> readable format either Word or .PDF  and she will even re-format
>> tables into readable formats.  We can get descriptions of images and
>> or tactile diagrams created.  Those are usually outsourced to AMAC
>> Accessible Solutions which is an organization based on campus that
>> makes content accessible to all colleges and universities in the state
>> system and has partner institutions all over the country.  I have seen
>> them get an entire college level Math book transcribed into Braille in
>> less than a month.  They now also convert documents into Math ML as
>> well.  I am getting two Statistics books converted right now.
>>
>> The network of people that you meet can also be of assistance,
>> depending upon the situation.  I was fortunate that my advisor was an
>> acquaintance of mine before I applied.  His lab does research into
>> assistive technology and the other students in the lab just help me
>> because it is the right thing to do.  One of them is the person that
>> created the descriptions for Zack at Mississippi state a few weeks
>> ago.  The others love to have me in a class with them as they know
>> that the PDF documents for studying will now be readable!  Sighted
>> students get crappy stuff (bad scan of a bad copy) and many now use the
> text to speech engine in Acrobat Reader to read their
>> materials. .   My fellow lab mates also created the first totally
>> accessible
>> fantasy football league just so I could play with them.  After using
>> up the ESPN seed grant, they did it as a side project and did anything
>> to make it relevant to our research goals.  We have had one
>> publication, one CSUN presentation, and two more current journal
>> submissions concerning the data collected from our projects and
>> studies.  These are the same people that know to ask me if I have a
>> text copy of any book that they are using for research.  They know
>> that many hundred page printed book on their desk is not nearly as
>> useful as the electronic one I have.  Sometimes, we have the print
>> book on the table next to a computer with the electronic one when we are
> writing papers and citing our references.
>>
>> It is a constant fight for most of us, but there Aare some schools
>> that do such a great job that is actually surprising.  I had a former
>> student just graduate from the M.B.A. program at Drexel as an almost
>> totally blind student and the school went out of their way to
>> accommodate her.  They even ended up contracting with a second company
>> to insure her Statistics and Economics books were accessible to her.
>> She got accessible .PDF's and tactile maps and graduated on time.  She
>> had completed a degree in Electrical Engineering when she was sighted,
>> but she says that the accommodations at Drexel, especially from her
>> professors, is what made her graduate program enjoyable.
>>
>> I spoke with a very low-vision TVI friend of mine yesterday that
>> wishes she had a student that was STEM interested or was at the level
>> that she had to provide some of the things we have been discussing.
>> She moves between six middle and high schools in our county and does
>> not have any of her students who have gotten past pre-Calculus.  The
>> higher functioning ones are usually low-vision and the rest stop at basic
> high school Math and Science.
>>
>> On the other hand, I have another TVI in a county North of Atlanta
>> that has assisted in making every STEM related course in high school
> accessible.
>> She
>> has seen students go on to the University of Georgia in Genetics and
>> to Duke, Emory, and Wake Forrest in other STEM related fields.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Amanda Lacy via Blindmath
>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 1:18 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
>>
>>> University ought to be enjoyable and not be like standing on a beach
>>> watching a tidal wave coming, especially for those that can't see it.
>>
>> But that's exactly how it is, at least for me. Just as I'm starting to
>> gain my balance again I'm knocked over by another wave. People are
>> telling me I should explore, have fun, and enjoy the challenge, but
>> all I have time for is survival. I experience no joy, not anymore.
>> Meanwhile, the sighted ones are all talking about what they want to
>> take next semester like it's some great adventure. It's always some
>> course I couldn't dream of taking because I can't read the textbooks.
>>
>> Yes, I'm fully aware of LaTeX. Usually I have to beg for it, and I
>> don't always get it. And y'all should see some of the barely-usable
>> LaTeX I've received. It wasn't much better than no LaTeX at all.
>>
>> There are also plenty of CS courses about graphics, but none about sound.
>> They poison everything with graphics.
>>
>> I'm graduating with a bachelors in CS in May, and I don't think I'm
>> ever going back.
>>
>> Sorry for the reality, guys.
>>
>> Amanda
>>
>> On 11/30/15, Godfrey, Jonathan via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I'd like all professionals in the business of helping students ask
>>> their former students what things they actively did that left them
>>> unprepared for university. This is not really covered by the
>>> questions posed in Maureen's message.
>>>
>>> All too often I am observing 18-20 year old blind people lack
>>> independence and confidence and therefore struggle at university. The
>>> support mechanisms they had on hand during high school are no longer
>>> there; the disability support systems are not ready to help them; and
>>> the educators they must work with have even less idea. The issues are
>>> even further compounded in the STEM fields where so many additional
>>> skills
>> are needed.
>>>
>>> In particular, I'd like to have seen more of the students I've come
>>> across gain experience preparing their own homework during high
>>> school so that they have experience before they get to university
>>> where there are so many other new things to have to deal with.
>>>
>>> University ought to be enjoyable and not be like standing on a beach
>>> watching a tidal wave coming, especially for those that can't see it.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> derek riemer via Blindmath
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 1 December 2015 5:41 a.m.
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Cc: derek riemer
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> If your student is planning to pursue a stem degree, then introduce
>>> them to la tex a bit. They should learn it asap as a college student
>>> because many stem materials may be more accessible in la tex format.
>>> Also, ensure that they know nemeth braille. It is insane how many
>>> people I know don't know nemeth braille, and it is essential to have
>> tactile feedback of the math.
>>> Also, having them transcribe math to you as well as having them use a
>>> tool like nemetex will help them ensure they are prepared for the
>>> process of converting math in college. I don't know anyone in a
>>> college setting who can have a tvi or someone interline their
>>> homework. It is essential to learn how to verbally transcribe
>>> homework, especially in more complex courses. You can mostly survive
>>> calc 1 and 2 with a tool like nemetex, but in upper level courses
>>> such as linear algebra, I found it necessary to use paper with
>>> braille to even understand the material. Some of it is spacial enough
>>> that the tech isn't quite ready to present the math correctly. Also,
>>> without a transcriber to transcribe (verbally I read them what I
>>> wanted them to
>>> write) math in linear algebra, it meant at least 3 hours of typing
>>> out the matrices in la tex. This is compared to half an hour reading
>>> it to someone who was skilled at writing that level of math.
>>> Hth.
>>>
>>> On 11/30/2015 8:07 AM, Lewicki, Maureen via Blindmath wrote:
>>>> Good morning!  I am a TVI of some great and capable students. Would
>>>> you do me a favor? Could you reflect back on your high school years
>>>> and let me
>>>> know:
>>>>
>>>> Did you have a TVI supporting you?
>>>> What did he/she do to prepare you for college and career?
>>>> What do you regret the TVI did not do to prepare you?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input! My career is not long enough to make all my
>>>> own mistakes! I would rather learn from others' mistakes and strengths!!
>>>>
>>>> Maureen Murphy Lewicki
>>>> Teacher of the Visually Impaired
>>>> Bethlehem Central School District
>>>> Bethlehem High School
>>>> 700 Delaware Ave
>>>> Delmar, NY 12054
>>>> http://www.bethlehemschools.org<http://www.bethlehemschools.org/>
>>>> Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through
>>>> experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened,
>>>> ambition inspired, and success
>>>> achieved.<http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/30186.html> Helen
>>>> Keller
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> 4
>>>> 0 colorado.edu BlindMath Gems can be found at
>>>> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>     Derek Riemer
>>>
>>>   * Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
>>>   * Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
>>>   * Open source enthusiast.
>>>   * Member of Bridge Cu
>>>   * Avid skiier.
>>>
>>> Websites:
>>> Honors portfolio <http://derekriemer.drupalgardens.com>
>>> Non-proffessional website.
>>> <http://derekriemer.pythonanywhere.com/personal>
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>>> <http://derekriemer.pythonanywhere.com/weather>
>>>
>>> email me at derek.riemer at colorado.edu
>>> <mailto:derek.riemer at colorado.edu>
>>> Phone: (303) 906-2194 <tel:%28303%29%20906-2194>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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