[BlindMath] What is your experience reading LaTeX source?

Fri Jan 11 20:17:07 UTC 2019

I share your hope that the conversion tools will get better. Yet here
we are where we are. You can check yourself on arxiv that converting a
maths paper will be substantially more difficult tha nconveerting a
physics paper.

L

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 15:02:24 -0500
Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Ok, I should have phrased that 'bottom line' sentence slightly 
> differently. But the overall point is still fully valid. I am a
> research level blind physicist and read papers from arxiv all the
> time. And most of the time I am able to do this either with zero or
> minimal time wasted on reading or editing the original LaTex code.
> The reason: I choose to work with technology that allows me to do
> this.
> 
> Yes, several blind mathematicians read LaTex code directly. But that 
> hardly means it is not a very inefficient way to read math. There is
> a reason why sighted people generally read the compiled pdf instead
> of reading the LaTex source code directly. The difference is like
> going to a website and reading the html source code with all the
> formatting junk instead of reading the actual website on display. One
> can of course read the source code but one wouldn't normally do that
> as a first choice unless one really has to. And this isn't merely a
> matter of personal preference but has to do with the fact that if you
> have to read through all those formatting commands which aren't
> related to the content, then it's distracting and makes reading
> inefficient.
> 
> Now, coming to the point about the inability of LaTex to MathML 
> converters to cleanly produce good MathML without requiring one to
> edit the source code. I haven't worked with MathMl conversion because
> I haven't been able to get one working, honestly. I have however done
> some experimentation with LaTex to MathType convertors, and yes, the
> results are mixed. It's true that things don't always convert well to
> Math Type without having to edit the source code. But then this only
> means that these tools aren't quite there yet despite all the
> excessive hype around MathML and Math Type on these forums. It does
> not mean that reading LaTex directly should be the way to go.
> 
> As I I wrote in the previous e-mail, I use an old tool called 
> WinTriangle for reading LaTex documents because it allows conversion
> to a clutter-free format with much less work. Yes, I do have to edit
> the source code sometimes in order to make it convert correctly. But
> most of the time
> I am able to simply convert it to WinTriangle without having to open
> the LaTex source code at all. Apart from the arxiv, this also applies
> to documents obtained by scanning something and converting it to
> LaTex through infty reader. They mostly convert nicely to WinTriangle
> without one having to even open the LaTex source code. This allows me
> to focus on reading the real content without having to waste time
> reading through all the clutter in the LaTex code.
> 
> So here is the revised bottom line: One doesn't and shouldn't have to 
> spent a lot of time reading through the formatting mess in the LaTex 
> source code in order to read math. Sighted people don't do it and we 
> shouldn't have to do it either. If we're doing it, then we're using
> the wrong technology and lowering our efficiency.
> 
> 
> On 1/11/2019 8:55 AM, John G Heim via BlindMath wrote:
> > Yeah, I didn't see that in the original post but I write all my own 
> > latex by hand. Every document I create for any reason, whether it
> > is for work or for one of the non-profits I am involved in, is
> > written in latex by hand. Then I convert it to pdf and send it out.
> >
> > I used to teach a mini-course in latex for grad students at the
> > Math Department at the University Of Wisconsin. We dropped it a
> > long time ago because grad students come in already knowing latex.
> >
> >
> > On 1/11/19 6:48 AM, Łukasz Grabowski via BlindMath wrote:  
> >> The bottom line cited below is not quite true:
> >>
> >> "Bottom line: with several available alternatives, no one should
> >> have to read LaTex source code directly unless they really want to
> >> torture themselves."
> >>
> >> I know it for a fact that blind professional mathematicians read
> >> latex directly. If you don't believe, I suggest going to arxiv.org,
> >> downloading latex source for some new mathematical article and
> >> trying to convert it to mathml.
> >>
> >> The effect likely will be that no matter what software you use you
> >> will have to spend first a substantial amount of time editing the
> >> source code just to make your software parse the source. And even
> >> if you do succeed (which is FAR from given as not all latex
> >> pakcages will be implemented in your conversion software))
> >> afterwards you will also surely need to consult latex source
> >> anyway while reading mathml.
> >>
> >> Having said that, this is about professional cutting edge
> >> mathematical research. For the purpose of high school students or
> >> early university (basic calculus, statistics, etc.), there is
> >> probably indeed no need, as there are good quality mathml
> >> materials available.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Lukasz
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> BlindMath mailing list
> >> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> for BlindMath:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu 
> >>
> >> BlindMath Gems can be found at 
> >> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >>  
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > for BlindMath:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/aqil_sajjad%40yahoo.ca 
> >
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at 
> > <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindMath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/graboluk%40gmail.com
> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>