[BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

Mon Mar 1 22:42:10 UTC 2021

Hello Jonathan,

I think you make some good points in this post. I can recall a conversation I had with one of my professors regarding what you mention in your post. 

I honestly cannot remember how this came up in our conversation, but I remember my professor stating that he thought textbook publishers were required to create accessible textbook materials including textbooks and online platforms. So it was his belief that if a publisher was selling something to the college then it would already be accessible. 

So I am wondering how many professors and college administrators are aware that there is no legal obligation for the publishers to sell them accessible content, and that it is up to the college to ensure they are choosing accessible materials. 

I honestly believe this is a backwards approach to things. But this is my understanding of the situation.

Warm regards,
Elizabeth

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath
Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 3:41 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

Susan, Sina,  et al.,

Several things come to mind.

1. I concur with Sina. Undergraduate mathematics may not have changed enough to warrant the endless cycle of publishing, but the way this material is taught is changing even if only very slowly due to improvements in the use and availability of software. A current implementation of a software-free undergraduate course would be very similar to one taught 30 years ago. On the other hand, the pressure to move online for many interactions in university courses will affect everyone in the end, including mathematics.
2. There are some disciplines in STEM that are changing rapidly. People will have seen my posts on other topics to this list over the last few months where I comment on the massive impact of technological change in my own discipline of Statistics. Thankfully, the most modern printed texts are going stale so fast that the most modern statistics courses must use online textbooks, many of which are quite accessible.
3. I remain staggered at the comparatively low availability of open source textbooks today. Authors get so little reward for their efforts in a financial sense especially if they only sell hundreds of copies. This lack of financial reward is pushing many to make their books available online in one form or another. The question I have for Susan and anyone else having to find efficient ways to generate accessible content is the basic "why" question. As Sina said, calculus hasn't actually changed much (at the undergraduate level) so why doesn't the pressure go back on staff to find accessible resources for the blind students they are supposed to be serving?

I would argue that US law does force educators to use accessible content for their teaching. I accept that this won't directly pressure publishers, but if staff don't choose books that have an accessible version, then the bottom line (profit) will speak to publishers.

I argue that an education facility that chooses inaccessible software is the problem, not the manufacturer of that software. I've criticised two major statistical software options for their failings to address access. It hasn't worked and it won't work until someone takes a university to task for purchasing or procuring inaccessible software.

Surely, the massive cost to universities ought to be having an impact? Why would a university accept the burden of converting inaccessible STEM content instead of forcing its staff to use an accessible alternative?

At present, I expect the effort is made in the "because we have to" courtesy of  the fundamental right to education for the students. Changing textbook won't breach anyone's human rights and could possibly prove cheaper than all that conversion done just before the point of consumption. Moving to born-accessible resources seems to me to be the only way we are going to see the massive change that is required.

Susan: I totally understand the need to get from A to Z efficiently. Efficiency drives my personal approach to so many tasks I must undertake. I can't rely on OCR to deliver the accuracy I need so I understand your comments. A student who does not have an available human translator though is left at a serious disadvantage today if they are being offered inaccessible content. Work on projects like Infty must therefore continue. I admit though that if I can't get something online, then the best option I have available to me today remains the department secretary upstairs. Thankfully, that occurs around once every six months or so nowadays.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, 2 March 2021 7:21 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

MathPix is relatively new and I've not looked into it.  We do use Texthelp's EquatIO to capture individual equations for placement as MathType in our Word documents, which saves time.  It is also quite accurate.  

With the training I give my student staff, they learn quickly how to use shortcuts in MathType production, and the output has been of excellent quality using our processing. 

I am not willing to try INFTY again, as we've tried it several times over the years and end up with such a wide variety of results, that I don't trust it as a production tool.  I need equations to come out accurate, without having to be double-checked so heavily.  There is the additional issue of INFTY needing very high DPI scans, which are slow to create and slow to process, which adds another layer of time to our production process.

I've been in IT for many years, and have a background in process improvement, which generally means we are trying to find the shortest path between A and Z in our production.  Right now, we are as tight as we can be, until better tools come along.

-Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nikita via BlindMath
Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 10:59 AM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Nikita <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

Susan,
Thanks for the answer.
Have you had any experience with Mathpix Snip?
Mathpix Snip digitizes handwritten or printed text, and copies outputs to the clipboard that can be pasted into LaTeX editors like MathType for Word, and more. See https://mathpix.com/ It is a newer OCR technology for mathematical document and possibly more advanced. 
Although it is more focused on recognizing each formula or sheet separately, rather than the entire document at once.
how would you evaluate the accuracy of Mathpix Snip?
Is there any noticeable difference in the accuracy of InftyReader and Mathpix Snip?
 (If you tried to use it.)
Best regards, Nikita.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 8:29 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

We have found wildly mixed results with INFTY.  Each equation output from INFTY needs to be checked for accuracy, and actually takes longer than our current method of processing.  As we are charging by the hour for our work to clients, we are not willing to use an inefficient product that would cost them more.  The time needed to compare each and every equation, plus additional stress on the eyes by moving back and forth to check them all, is completely inefficient and reduces the number of hours we can spend actually doing production.  We find better, higher quality results using our current method. 

-Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nikita via BlindMath
Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 9:20 AM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Nikita <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

Hi Susan,
Why don't you use InftyReader in your work?
InftyReader is OCR software for mathematical document. See https://secure-web.cisco.com/1t5G1T9JRFboOSgGmzXDWmlBwrcOPEui20sKEPwS0O01S3y
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MWkPhMhf3VvyqXII9m_QQit0wEq8pyhEmM-QU-TJimcQ/https%3A%2F%2Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.com/1l_bjRbshzcYag92QAZepTjF0zsTj1ZRAdkku-S02nLKN6ejIti43ihd0afbR66ENlg930gA3xgdjHsmrERmbd7kDuers39Y0FvXPzHyahtlxtlj0JIPDcLMA-R8U6Fkt7W_fzSzxjj6NyLFrvERdiOhpgngIRyGZReBWQvWY5evrfBoozXQ_d0rBtvrtUBetu1X78szEnBQJ58L8WhY1XGiG09MqJP1MhpJW9jauiL0B5pc2yCUcaQEiuYu1qzcyOWkGxB4Y9TcNodtULUS5covmzwxjnjf4mlQ-bZX7LLhXVSbSeWb-mVOAQOD7QFPx-MCANhTOd-8VhQzFaPy2HKirs1epAxNjfb6cXphuTKVJDQcyylnLhjG5Bi7D2gA0PV063JYDBOVqcQCtaxi9oPKBFaghXKHzB7VeIT10-zs9-RfMCiAqYXqnjORspgj4/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciaccess.net
%2Fen%2FInftyReader%2F
Have you tried this tool? Doesn't it help automate at least some of your work?
Best regards, Nikita.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 6:54 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains me to see the struggle with accessible math.  We regularly convert math textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for our students and for clients who contract our services.  Those clients are usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production facility.  We have a full production facility.

That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few buttons and collecting the output.  Math conversion takes hours, many hours.  A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete.  That is for one book.
Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the beginning of the semester with no lead time, and students who need them right now.

We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not accessible to everyone.  We are obviously grateful to get any content at all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone can do.  I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into Braille, MathML, or other outputs.  

To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the pandemic is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more courses being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students with multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the best we can.
But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many hours in a day.
And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing Math remediation several years ago. All of our current clients came out of that loss of a vendor.  I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did.  I think there has always been a lack of enough vendors in this field.  But campuses often balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab like ours.  We are not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our services, and less than some other vendors in the field. 

Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated every year.  A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in 2001.  There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed.  Yet every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more money.  This is a frustration.  I have three different editions of Linear Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things, when the older version would work just fine.  Math doesn't change from year to year.  They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.  

Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as possible.
We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials from publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto files for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials are until just before or sometimes after classes start.  We do our best to advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often tied.
And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making Microsoft Word files of a standard textbook or novel.  I can convert an 1800 page law book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less.  Yet a 400 page math book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other animal.

I fight with publishers all the time.  I'm a socially-justice-minded person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to alternate format.  Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they are not where they need to be.  All I can do is promise that I will continue to carry on this fight with publishers.

And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email.  If I have the files, I will share them with you.  Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services/Student Affairs University of Colorado Boulder Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu

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