[BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Sun Feb 26 05:51:28 UTC 2023

George and Jonathan,

First, I feel so lucky to have met you, Jonathan, in person, and I am very grateful for all of the contributions that you and George make to this list.  Both of you add a great deal to the usefulness of this list because of background you have that I and others don't have.

We, in the United States, are very frustrated with issues related to the ADA and software and internet sites.  Some courts here have upheld cases filed under the ADA but others have rejected them.  The ADA was passed before much of our web and software issues were part of the problem, so some conservative courts say a law cannot apply to something that did not exist when the law was passed.  As Jonathan knows, I am an old math major and not a lawyer so I can't evaluate such things objectively.  

The National Federation of the Blind is trying to get passed a Web Site and Applications Accessibility Act that we hope will be introduced this week.  This will be an uphill battle, but many of us will be pushing for it.  it would more or less require that web sites and software be accessible, supplementing the ADA and take the power away from the courts to some degree.  

Another weird aspect of our laws here is that they often apply to institutions that use certain software and not to those creating the software.  This means that those who use software that is not accessible or has problems can say that it is an "undue burden" to switch to something else, and those creating the software have little pressure to change.  Originally, I thought that getting people to move away from inaccessible software would put pressure on them to change, but that good old "undue Burden" phrase kind of prevents that from happening.

Over the past twenty years, the NFB has tried different approaches to this issue and we have made limited progress.  We have tried getting passed requirements that institutions of higher education be required to use accessible software in their classes.  We got some traction on that but we did not get it passed.  This time, we are trying to go after this more directly, and we are also trying to get in-home medical devices to be accessible as well.  

This does not address your short term concerns, but I wanted both of you to know that your frustrations are shared and we're trying to do something.  As an older blind person, I am very frustrated with how long this is taking.  I have worked in the computer field for my working life, but, as I said, I was a math major, and I believe there is a lot of potential for blind kids and young adults to pursue what we call STEM careers.  These are roadblocks that are almost completely artificial that should be changed.  Thank you to both of you for all that you contribute.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson
List Moderator

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 10:31 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Hello George,

I'm really not sure if you were trying to be funny with this comment or serious.

It would be nice for those of us living outside the US, if the powers that be in the US would force these US companies to meet their obligations under the ADA. 

With respect to SPSS, I reviewed their VPAT statement some years ago and found it almost unbelievable. They quite clearly did not have evaluations of their software made by screen reader users. <sigh> This was before I discovered the V in VPAT was for voluntary.

I'd love to see some trigger-happy litigator file a class action against software companies for breaches of the ADA. It won't solve Ashley's situation though.

Meanwhile, the best solution for anyone in my position is to make work for people who insist on using inaccessible software and/or systems. I decided that I would no longer pay someone sighted to help me navigate such systems with my own resources. I now put the work back onto the person wanting me to use that inaccessible system It's been quite easy really, starting with my supposed excessive annual leave problem. I was taking leave but unable to use the HR system to have it recorded or approved. When my balance got to three years' worth, I finally got a bit more attention from management and a satisfactory work around.

When it comes to software, I have structured my life in such a way that means I avoid the painful software and make use of friendly alternatives. Thankfully, the alternatives are often free and open source.

All the best,
Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of George Bell via BlindMath
Sent: Sunday, 26 February 2023 10:37 am
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: george at techno-vision.co.uk
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Does "Section 508" not cover this in the USA?
George

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath
Sent: 25 February 2023 06:43
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Hello Ashley,

I haven't checked v27 of SPSS, but many versions prior to this were less than fully accessible to a screen reader user.

I doubt the course you are taking is going to make use of the underlying SPSS code/command language, often referred to by SPSS users as the "syntax".

You have three options worthy of consideration, and the best option will heavily depend on what support you will get from your university. Most people know I favour R, while some others like to fight with SAS code, and a relatively small number work with Stata.

All three require entry of commands entered as text in script files and all can return readable output (text of HTML).

See https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fr-resources.massey.ac.nz%2Fstatsoftware%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C8e5297c95d214e972f9a08db17b26255%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638129827146794077%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xeerrUjwVBzLnBJUX1BkjHGK3NfJd%2Bcze5xc1BlGohQ%3D&reserved=0 for a rough review. I probably need to do some more updates to it on the software I haven't checked for some time.
And then https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fr-resources.massey.ac.nz%2Fhelp%2FAccessibleSTEMSoftware.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7C8e5297c95d214e972f9a08db17b26255%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638129827146794077%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RYmpcivg902y%2F%2FkiD1%2F3%2Ftf3trM%2Fq0gozDHVUnU11k8%3D&reserved=0
for a "go-to" list, which also includes some mathematics software options.

Of note is the fact that I set the bar on accessibility quite high. See https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fr-resources.massey.ac.nz%2Fhelp%2FGoldStandard.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7C8e5297c95d214e972f9a08db17b26255%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638129827146794077%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yCqr7Xsk1%2Ffx75zvSovIxohPS9Bm7wIov1BsRBoil8A%3D&reserved=0
for my definition. This was a conversation started on this list

If you decide to go down the R pathway, then there are plenty of resources to help, written in screen reader friendly HTML. I recommend you use the same workflow as many of these authors so that your work leads to an HTML file that you can deal with using your existing skills.

HTH,
Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ashley N via BlindMath
Sent: Saturday, 25 February 2023 6:55 pm
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: Ashley N <crazy4chemistry at att.net>
Subject: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Hello,
I am a current PhD student in Education with a STEM Accessability focus at Oregon State University. I will be taking a quantitative analysis course next quarter and have been told by the instructor I will need to use SPSS 27 for my course. I am a JAWS user with the most current version of JAWS 2023.
What all do I need to know to accomplish this or if that is not accessible what should I suggest for a work around?
Thank you all!
Ashley
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