[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

Ray Foret Jr rforetjr at att.net
Sun Dec 16 18:43:01 UTC 2012 

In partial defense of Peter, I don't think he meant to imply that he would not willingly asociate with a competently functioning blind person who used neither cane or dog.  I do hope, Peter, that I am correct in this?


Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!

On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Constance Canode <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Peter,
> 
> I use my cane always and without fail. My husband has very good usable vision and does not feel that he needs a cane for travel. I agree with him. So it sounds like only one of us would be welcome to visit your home. I can understand not wanting someone knocking over your valuables, but not associating with a competent person because they do not use a cane is sad. 
> 
> Constance Canode 
> Sent from my I-phone 
> 
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> Okay, so, let me see if I've got this straight now.  This woman cannot function without a cane?  Didn't quite pick that up the first time.  As for your home; well, it's your home; but, just one small point.  Suppose a blind person uses neither dog or cane; but, appears to be able to function well not withstanding?  I still reckon you'd do better with pursuation rather than force.  Seems to me that this situation is becoming a little more interesting than a blind woman just not using a cane because just because.
>> 
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>> 
>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:38 AM, "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> 
>>>  The article is called "The Nature of Independence." The person in 
>>> question is a woman. If we're being unreasonable other chapter members 
>>> including the president went farther and tried to keep this individual from 
>>> joining the chapter. The individual was removed from the call list for 
>>> meeting notification a situation we learned of and put a stop too. This is 
>>> but one of many problems that have plagued our chapter during the year. 
>>> Please keep us in your prayers that we can begin putting things right next 
>>> month when we elect new officers for 2013. As for our home we make the rules 
>>> here. If you depend on a travel aid for your independence and can't function 
>>> without it if you wish to visit you're expected to use it. That's a non 
>>> negotiable with us. We'll keep you posted on what happens.
>>> 
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Brian Miller" <brianrmiller88 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:24 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dear Peter,
>>> 
>>> I think Dianne gives some excellent advice here.  Your example of competent
>>> travel, using dog or cane, will do much more than any tough love tactics you
>>> may employ. You can only show this person another way, you can't force them
>>> to embrace it.
>>> 
>>> Being there for this person, even when they make poor choices, all the while
>>> you show him an alternative will go a long way.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>> Brian Miller
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of pkt52 at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:29 AM
>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> Diane - what a kind and logical response!   I love what you
>>>> have written!!!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Diane Graves <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: blinddog3 <blinddog3 at charter.net>; 'Blind Talk Mailing
>>>> List' <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:24 am
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>> 
>>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about
>>>> this dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this
>>>> time, but I remember that at the end, the gist of the writing
>>>> was summarized by a statement along the lines of "whether
>>>> dog, or cane or human arm" the choice belongs to the
>>>> individual, and the overall objective is to get where you
>>>> need to go and do what you need to do.
>>>> 
>>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly
>>>> blind, others re blind people who have been sheltered all of
>>>> their lives, others are people that are so independent that
>>>> they think they could climb a skyscraper and survive. (A
>>>> little over the top there, but you know what I mean.)
>>>> 
>>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our
>>>> job is to meet them where they are and do our best to help
>>>> them. Whether or not they accept that help is up to them. The
>>>> behavior that you are describing is one reason that many
>>>> blind people don't want anything to do with the federation.
>>>> It sounds to me like the members are refusing their
>>>> friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really think
>>>> that is going to help him?
>>>> 
>>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and
>>>> send them home at their expense, then why in the world would
>>>> they have to take anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
>>>> 
>>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why
>>>> anyone would want to visit these members or be a part of the
>>>> chapter anyway. He could, incidentally refuse to get into the
>>>> cab and ride home at his expense.
>>>> 
>>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but
>>>> I wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I
>>>> would refuse friendship on the basis of whether someone was
>>>> too thin or too fat, or of another culture or any number of
>>>> other characteristics. When you think about it, maybe
>>>> actually being escorted/lead by a few blind people would
>>>> teach this guy that he could, in  fact, learn to travel himself.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good
>>>> many sighted people who have a healthy perspective about
>>>> blindness, there are some sighted people who have some
>>>> ridiculous ideas. It may very well be true that some crazy
>>>> neurologist did tell him that a cane might aggravate his
>>>> seizure disorder. You just don't know.
>>>> 
>>>> Diane Graves
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> Peter,
>>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA,
>>>> and with all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any
>>>> application here as the concept of direct threat, applies to
>>>> Title I, covering provisions of employment; not Titles II or
>>>> III.  It's a choice by this individual to go out into public
>>>> without the use of an aide such as a cane, or guide, but
>>>> their choice is sighted guide.  They are not posing a risk to
>>>> anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if this
>>>> person was employed, the application might be viable.
>>>> 
>>>> Steve
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind
>>>> Law Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>> 
>>>>  An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved
>>>> to San Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is
>>>> totally blind and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They
>>>> recently showed up at our Christmas party and had to be
>>>> helped in to and out of the meeting room we used for this event.
>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person
>>>> showed up without their cane. When later questioned about
>>>> this the person began giving us all manner of excuse. They
>>>> told us that their neurologist and past O&M instructors
>>>> recommended against the use of the cane due to this person's
>>>> having seizures. This individual attended Perkins along with
>>>> a number of other schools for the blind. I know for a fact
>>>> that at least while at Perkins this individual lived in a
>>>> cottage with another person who also has seizures and is one
>>>> of the best travelers I know. Like this person, the confident
>>>> cane user is totally blind and is someone I came to know
>>>> well. The individual in question undoubtedly met many other
>>>> successful blind cane users with other disabilities. I myself
>>>> have seizures and sleep apnea and use both a cane and a dog
>>>> depending on the situation.
>>>> 
>>>>  The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready
>>>> been told by several members in the area that if they wish to
>>>> visit them the/she must bring their cane and use it to get
>>>> from their transportation in to our residence and if
>>>> necessary use the cane during their visit.
>>>> 
>>>>  When attempting to reason with the person in question
>>>> members have been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard
>>>> all excuses in the book why he/she cannot use a cane
>>>> proficiently. The individual has been told that neurologists
>>>> are not qualified to determine whether or not the use of a
>>>> travel aid can effect one's seizures. The evidence to the
>>>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we
>>>> also know not all blindness professionals have true belief in
>>>> the capabilities of the blind. This individual obviously had
>>>> a few such persons in their life to sell them short on their
>>>> ability to travel independently and on the importance of
>>>> using a cane or a dog. The individual has been told that if
>>>> they show up at any of our homes without their cane we will
>>>> call them a cab and promptly send them home at their expense
>>>> something they can avoid simply by listening to reason and
>>>> using their cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The
>>>> last thing we need to have to do is take someone to the
>>>> emergency room when we know that an individual has complete
>>>> disregard for their personal safety and as negligent. It
>>>> seems like direct threat provisions of the ADA may apply in
>>>> this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers
>>>> can help us wit this one.
>>>> 
>>>>  We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of
>>>> independence and be an active member of our chapter. While we
>>>> won't prohibit them from joining us they'll be a more
>>>> effective contributor to the cause if they would embrace the
>>>> alternative techniques of blindness and use them regularly.
>>>> Thanks for your help and suggestions.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>> 
>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>>>> Isaiah 54:17
>>>> 
>>>> "While for our princes they prepare
>>>> In caverns deep a burning snare,
>>>> He shot from heaven a piercing ray,
>>>> And the dark treachery brought to day."
>>>> Anonymous
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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