[Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

Wed Mar 20 12:48:42 UTC 2013

I agree with you.  I have seen some horrible abuses of dogs by there so
called owners, and I have also seen some horrible dog users.  I would like
the Blind to be as independent as possible in the handling of their dogs,
but they have to do so with skill.  How does anyone propose the dogs
themselves be protected?  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian
Miller
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:59 AM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

Hi all,

I certainly respect anyone's choice of guide dog schools, but I would not
equate this issue to that of sheltered workshops.  

I don't know about all of the schools, and I very much appreciate that many
schools have been bastions of negative attitudes about blindness.  

My understanding is, however, that at least in the case of Guide Dogs for
the Blind in San Rafael, California, you have the option to take full
ownership of your dog after one year.  I know some will see this as still
too paternalistic, and I respect that, but I think it's also important to
recognize that this isn't just about the blind person, but about the dogs.
Schools like Guide Dogs invest tens of thousands of dollars in raising ,
training, and supporting the dogs and their handlers.  They have a interest
in ensuring that this investment is maximized, and also to ensure that the
dogs are well cared for.  

Blind people get the dogs and the training for free -- if we are so
insistent on full and outright ownership of the dogs, should we also not
accept the full cost of the dog's training?  I suspect this is far beyond
the ability of most blind people to manage.  

Guide Dogs also provides a lot of follow-up care, including the paying of
most vet bills, which runs hundreds of dollars every year.  

The follow-up visits are more than just check-ins, but training
opportunities.  I think it's a matter of perspective as to how intrusive or
even oppressive these visits are.  

I think it would be interesting to know how many dogs are taken away from
their handlers.  I suspect that the number is very small, but still it's
worth knowing to get a sense of the scope of the issue.  

I think it's one thing to talk of ownership, but another thing to take on
the full cost of doing so, or the full cost of running such an operation
ourselves.  I certainly would want as many blind people in charge of guide
dog schools as possible, assuming they have the management skills to do so,
and I recognize that far too many schools see their work as charity not
empowerment of blind people, but this is not the case of all schools, and
Seeing Eye isn't the only school trying to balance the needs of the blind
person and the dog and the community.  

I'm not a dog user, but I still felt compelled to offer some thoughts for
what they are worth -- thanks!.  

Respectfully,

Brian Miller

> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle 
> Antoine
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:03 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
> 
> Peter, Amen and Hallelujah! the seeing Eye's policies just fit my 
> personal philosophy. It is why after doing much extensive research and 
> consideration I always go back to TSE!
> I view the ownership and mandatory follow-ups by most of the schools 
> as degrading and akin to workshop pay. something is wrong with this 
> lack of trust in in the quality they put out.
> graduates should be treated as the grown adults they are not as 
> grade-schoolers where ththey must be checked up on and graded so to 
> speak. TSE never ever checks up on its grad and they only come when 
> and if you ever need them....providing honest and fair assessments. 
> Only way I'll ever go anywhere else is if they should ever refuse me 
> service or my health requirements dictate.
> 
> Sometimes, circumstances beyond our control interferes with a team and 
> shortens the working relationship and that should be taken into 
> consideration by the schools retaining ownership.
> JMO and personal experience!
> 
> On 12/16/12, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> > Money money money!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Diane
> > Graves
> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:13 AM
> > To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
> >
> > Now that would be a good idea. After all, we have a strong
> O&M program
> > run by our own for cane users. Why *not* have a guide dog
> program? I
> > like that idea.
> >
> > Diane Graves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter
> > Donahue
> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:49 PM
> > To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
> >
> > Good afternoon everyone,
> >
> >     I'm increasingly becoming convinced that some of this 
> > misunderstanding is being generated by our own guide dog
> users and not
> > just those outside the federation. This came clear to me
> judging from
> > the reactions of those attending this year's NAGDU Meeting
> in Dallas
> > last summer concerning several issues being discussed.
> >     For years the NFB has been trying to convince guide dog
> schools to
> > end the practice of retaining ownership of their dogs and adopt a 
> > policy similar to that of The Seeing Eye. Put simply as Lucas Frank 
> > said last summer "We have no (Ownership policy)! When students 
> > complete training they leave the school with their dog and it is 
> > there's."We also know that a number of schools that retain
> ownership
> > have wrongfully taken dogs from their handlers with no
> explaination of
> > why. We just picketted Amazon last Wednesday. I'll retract
> this belief
> > concerning the use of guide dogs when NAGDU organizes
> pickets of guide
> > dog programs that wrongfully take dogs from their blind handlers to 
> > bring public awareness to this shabby practice.
> >
> >         Likewise I worked with several NAGDU Members to
> craft a "Guide
> > Dog consumer Bill of Rights." During the NAGDU meeting
> schools at the
> > convention were asked to indicate whether or not they would
> "Sign on" 
> > and recognize the rights of the blind consumers they serve. Some 
> > refused to comment. Others side-stepped the issue all together and 
> > still others wanted to "Negotiate."
> >
> > I shure hope we don't go down the negotiation path and allow these 
> > outfits to water down this document. As far as I know not one guide 
> > dog program has signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights.
> >
> >     Going back to the matter of ownership retention when Marion 
> > Gwizdala and a few others spoke out strongly against the beliefs of 
> > guide dog programs that ownership was necessary pittifully few in 
> > attendence applauded. Yet these same people joind others to
> help bring
> > the house down when it came to cheering on those that spoke in 
> > opposition to the continued payment of subminamum wages to
> blind shop
> > workers! If you asked me something is very wrong with that picture!
> >
> >     If the NFB was more agressive in addressing these
> matters we would
> > be more visible and people would know that we do indeed recognize 
> > one's choice to use a guide dog for independent travel and
> are a force
> > in the affairs of guide dog users. If folks find this
> offensive I'll
> > gladly retrack what I said when the following conditions are met:
> >
> > 1. Greater publicity is given to the practice of ownership
> retention
> > of dogs by guide dog schools.
> > 2. All schools recognize the NFB'S Guide Dog Consumer Bill
> of Rights
> > as it was originally drafted.
> > 3. More is done to urge all guide dog programs to employ
> blind persons
> > as guide dog trainers and class instructors.
> > 4. (This is the big one.) We entertain discussion
> concerning the NFB'S
> > establishing its own guide dog program; a program operated by guide 
> > dog users for guide dog users!
> >
> >     I have repeatedly suggested such a discussion to President 
> > Gwizddala but to date it has not been an item for discussion during 
> > the NAGDU Meeting.
> >
> >     If there are still folks that think we're anty guide
> dog we should
> > look within our organization to see if there are actions
> and lack of
> > actions that are still perpetuating this myth. Persuing
> more agressive
> > solutions to the issues I've discussed above could put us
> further down
> > the road to ending this misunderstanding. All the best.
> >
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> >
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